Reconditioning my 1964 Super 400 CES

[Hannu]

I posted this originally at "Historic collection", but I think it was the wrong forum.

 

It is time to have some work done for my 1964 Gibson Super 400 CES.

 

I did not play it at all for the past 15 years, but when I got back to it, it was still in tune (perfect) and otherwise fine.

First part of my project has been to get a historically correct pickguard, which went missing before I bought this guitar in 1988.

With advice from the manager of Gibson Custom Shop Repairs, I was referred to pickguardian.com (Tony Dudzik) who will handbuild an old style 5-layer, lacquered pickguard from the old S-400 CES patterns, as they were done 1964.

 

Now, pickups:

The neck pickup works rather well, though I think it has lost something during the past 15 years. However, there is something wrong with the bridge pickup. It only has a little bit of thin treble sound left. This leads to an complicated issue. The original PAF's were according to many sources often very different from each other, so how do I know what my requirement is, how should this guitar in 1964? You can't walk around trying other S-400 CES's, nobody has one.

 

Would this strategy for the pickups make sense:

Buy a set of new Classic -57's, and put them on (these are used in the reissue S-400 CES). Then send the orginals to some expert to be rewound and refurbished which can take up to 2 months or so. Then, swap in the refurbished originals, the guitar should sound as good or better than with the new Classic 57's. If something was still wrong with the originals, this would reveal that. Once the originals were back in and working great, I would swap the new Classics to my Ibanez AK95, which is my daily practice guitar.

 

This is where I could use some ADVICE: could somebody recommend a good vintage guitar pickup repair shop? Preferably in Canada, but USA is fine, too.

 

Now, more issues:

The tuners are fine, but clearly show a lot of wear. The guitar was played a lot during its first two decades, and especially the G string tuner is visibly worn. I am OK now, but if I start playing this guitar more, I may run into a problem sooner or later. According to documentation, these are Kluson Sealfast made for Gibson, which are not for sale anywhere. Plus, even if I found new Klusons, and I would run to a typical vintage problem, the new shiny gold ones would look like Xmas tree decorations compared to old, somewhat faded brassy look.

 

QUESTION: Can machine heads be repaired?

 

Some people believe in re-fretting guitars as soon as wear begins to show on the first fret on the treble side. The frets of my CES are very worn, but there are no visible slots anywhere. I love playing this guitar, because the worn frets allow extremely low action. This is truly the elusive "Fretless Wonder". Now, all notes play loud and clear. The ends of the frets are carefully tapered, you can still see the detailed work that went into it.

 

QUESTION: How much time I have with my frets? I plan to play this guitar maybe averaging 20-30 minutes a day. But I can cut this down by practicing more with my Ibanez which was acquired to be a "worm-up" guitar for the CES. Isn't refretting really quite a dangerous operation? I have heard horror stories where great guitars have been spoiled by mediocre fretting job.

 

All ideas and advice appreciated,

Hannu

[L5Larry]

Hannu,

A couple of answers/suggestions for you.

 

First, the pickup issue: Pickups do go bad, but VERY rarely. Your problem is MOST LIKELY a dirty, or corroded potentiometer. DO NOTHING to the pickups until you rule out EVERY other possible problem. Pots can be cleaned in place, and $10 a piece buys new ones. Inactivity is the worst thing for pots. First try spinning it/them back a forth rapidly 20-50 times and see if that helps/solves your problem.

 

The next thing to try is Cleaner/lubricant spray that comes from any electronics type store. This is sprayed into the slot in the back of the pot can (not an easy feat on an archtop), and then repeat the spinning process. After 15 years of storage, you should clean and lube all your pots anyway. If this doesn't solve your problem, check all wiring for good solder joints, breaks, corrosion, etc.

 

Tuners: You say "they show a lot of wear", and "the G string tuner is visibly worn". In what way, cosmetic, mechanical, etc? More info is required here.

 

Frets: As long as your fret "dressing" is in fine condition, and you have no "buzz", or "fret-out" issues, your guitar should be fine for many more years, ESPECIALLY if you play flatwound strings. I have a 1947 L-7 with original frets, that has always been strung with flats. Roundwound Rock & Roll strings eat frets, and certain playing styles cause more fretwear than others. Your remaining fret-life will be determined by your individual characteristics.

 

Finding someone qualified to work on this guitar may be quite a problem. Your local guitar store tech is the LAST person I would let touch this guitar. I live just outside a major U.S. metropolitan area (St. Louis, Missouri), and fortunately do 99.9% of my own guitar work, but have found only two people in this area that I would let TOUCH my L-5 (or L-7), with tools in their hand.

 

Let me know if I can be of any more help.

 

Oh, and by the way, we'd love to see some photos of the S-400 (just for fun), but it might also help to show your tuning machine and fret issues.

[brantobrien]

Hannu,

A couple of answers/suggestions for you.

 

First, the pickup issue: Pickups do go bad, but VERY rarely. Your problem is MOST LIKELY a dirty, or corroded potentiometer. DO NOTHING to the pickups until you rule out EVERY other possible problem. Pots can be cleaned in place, and $10 a piece buys new ones. Inactivity is the worst thing for pots. First try spinning it/them back a forth rapidly 20-50 times and see if that helps/solves your problem.

 

The next thing to try is Cleaner/lubricant spray that comes from any electronics type store. This is sprayed into the slot in the back of the pot can (not an easy feat on an archtop), and then repeat the spinning process. After 15 years of storage, you should clean and lube all your pots anyway. If this doesn't solve your problem, check all wiring for good solder joints, breaks, corrosion, etc.

 

Tuners: You say "they show a lot of wear", and "the G string tuner is visibly worn". In what way, cosmetic, mechanical, etc? More info is required here.

 

Frets: As long as your fret "dressing" is in fine condition, and you have no "buzz", or "fret-out" issues, your guitar should be fine for many more years, ESPECIALLY if you play flatwound strings. I have a 1947 L-7 with original frets, that has always been strung with flats. Roundwound Rock & Roll strings eat frets, and certain playing styles cause more fretwear than others. Your remaining fret-life will be determined by your individual characteristics.

 

Finding someone qualified to work on this guitar may be quite a problem. Your local guitar store tech is the LAST person I would let touch this guitar. I live just outside a major U.S. metropolitan area (St. Louis, Missouri), and fortunately do 99.9% of my own guitar work, but have found only two people in this area that I would let TOUCH my L-5 (or L-7), with tools in their hand.

 

Let me know if I can be of any more help.

 

Oh, and by the way, we'd love to see some photos of the S-400 (just for fun), but it might also help to show your tuning machine and fret issues.

 

+1 to everything he said.

 

In my opinion, refretting is something you do only when the playability makes it necessary. When you do finally hit that point, find the best person in your area to do the work. Talk with local musicians and usually you'll start to hear one or two names that are known to do good work (be prepared to pay more for them). If you can't find someone locally, you can ship your guitar to someone that is nationally know to do great work (personally done this with Michael Tuttle of Best Frets, WOW!!!!), but shipping a guitar for many guitar owners is understandably a HUGE risk and not an option. Take the advice from the prior poster and you can probably really extend the time you have until a refret is necessary. AND PLEASE CHECK AND CLEAN YOUR POTS BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING TO YOUR PICKUPS! I almost had a bridge pickup rewound only to find out the issue was entirely unrelated to the pickup thanks to people on this very forum.

[j45nick]

Hannu,

Listen to L5 Larry. He and Danny W are the resident acoustic/elecric archtop experts here, and they won't steer you wrong.

 

As Larry says, it is unlikely that a pickup has "gone wrong", and you could significantly compromise the value of the instrument by replacing or "restoring" one unnecessarily.

 

 

Edit: I should have included JimR56 in the list of resident archtop experts, as well.

[stein]

Good advice all the way around.

 

I'll just reinforce, while I don't know what exact pups you have, they could actually have a lot of "money" value. Not that you should sell them, but just the thought you could be destroying a valueable pup should make you think twice before taking a chance that someone might rewind it without it needing it.

 

SEARCY, who frequents these forums, is a respected and trusted rewind guy who specializes in keeping pups as origonal as possible when they need work.

 

About frets: My personal feeling is that frets are a wear item, like tires. I don't think it makes any sense or gains anything to replace frets until there have been so many fret dressings they can't be dressed anymore, and there is no reason to dress them unless they need it. If they ARE wearing down, you will start wearing down the new ones or the fresh dress anyway...so you don't gain a thing unless you need it for playability or action.

 

Good on you for checking on doing work to a classic like that guitar. I think '64 would be a VERY high quality super 400, and worth keeping that way.

[JimR56]

I posted this originally at "Historic collection", but I think it was the wrong forum.

 

I think the best forum would have been "Vintage Gibsons" ( http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/forum/34-vintage-gibsons/ ), but this works too.

 

 

First part of my project has been to get a historically correct pickguard, which went missing before I bought this guitar in 1988.

With advice from the manager of Gibson Custom Shop Repairs, I was referred to pickguardian.com (Tony Dudzik) who will handbuild an old style 5-layer, lacquered pickguard from the old S-400 CES patterns, as they were done 1964.

Not sure what you mean by a "old style 5-layer, lacquered pickguard".

 

1964 was the last year that the original "marbled" pickguards (as used from the model's origin in the 1930's) were used on the Super 400:

 

 

 

This material is no longer available, and has been "copied" very poorly. Used guards like this occasionally come up for sale, but they're a pretty rare find now.

 

May I ask where you found your Super 4? I had a '64, which I traded to a shop in Seattle back in the mid-80's. Just wondering if yours could be the same guitar (there weren't that many produced of course, which is the only reason I ask). :)

[L5Larry]

(there weren't that many produced of course,

 

1964 Shipping Records Show:

29 Sunburst

13 Natural

[JimR56]

1964 Shipping Records Show:

29 Sunburst

13 Natural

Mine was a sunburst, but considering how many might have been destroyed (or butchered) by now, that's not a big number compared to some of the mass-produced models. At least it doesn't seem crazy to think about trying to find it again... :unsure: ... or maybe it does.

 

That's one guitar I probably should have held onto. Great player, plus the fact it was pretty special to me in terms of its history and who I bought it from. I had a chance to get a D'Angelico New Yorker by doing some creative wheeling and dealing, and that's the only reason I let go of it.

[Hannu]

 

 

Not sure what you mean by a "old style 5-layer, lacquered pickguard".

 

1964 was the last year that the original "marbled" pickguards (as used from the model's origin in the 1930's) were used on the Super 400:

 

 

This material is no longer available, and has been "copied" very poorly. Used guards like this occasionally come up for sale, but they're a pretty rare find now.

 

May I ask where you found your Super 4? I had a '64, which I traded to a shop in Seattle back in the mid-80's. Just wondering if yours could be the same guitar (there weren't that many produced of course, which is the only reason I ask). :)

 

First, thank you all for your informative replies! I wish I had joined this forum earlier.

 

About PICKGUARDS:

Not all -64 Super 400's came with the "marbled" ones, actually according to the Custom Shop, the customer often requested or chose the pickguard material. This is what Tony (pickguardian.com) says about this case:

There are three types of Tortoise that I use on projects like this. The first is two thin outer layers of real nitro-cellulose tortoise with a layer of clear acrylic sandwiched between them. I also use a Brown Tortoise acrylic which is similar to what Gibson used in the 40's and 50's. Of course I can use solid 1/8" tortoise but the cost will be a little higher. I use the solid nitro Tortoise on guards I make for the Gibson Repair Shop.

 

PICKUPS:

Thank you thank you, I should have thought about the pots. Yes, the pots did not crackle 15 years ago, but they do now. I knew the trick to keep rolling them dozens of times, and they got little better but not perfect. I will now make sure that they get serviced or even replaced if necessary before touching the pickups.

 

FRETS: Your posts confirmed what I was thinking. The frets are good, better than new. There is no buzzing or dead spots, every note plays correctly and clear. I am using flat wound strings, .011-0.050 for now but will graduate to 0.012's soon when my fingers get little stronger after years of not playing.

 

MACHINE HEADS: I'll take a macro shot of the G string tuner next time I change strings. We can then see what the situation is exactly.

 

WHERE I GOT MY Super 400:

There is a bit of a story about it. In the spring of 1988 I got a bonus at work, and I was determined to buy yet another guitar, this time something special. By this time I had had many guitars, Gibsons, Fenders, and I had developed this strategy of buying. Don't read catalogs, don't make up your mind before - like "I am going to buy a Lake Placid Blue -57 Strat". So, I had some money ready, and I started stalking guitar shops that I knew usually carry vintage guitars.

Downtown Toronto, at Steve's Music Store I saw the guys on the ladder raising the big Gibson to the rack. I carefully asked about it. It was on consignment from the original owner who had to their knowledge played in some professional big band jazz orchestra. He had the guitar (then, 1988) for 24 years, and had made a living with it.

We plugged it into a nice Fender Twin Reverb and the big store went quiet when I played a few chords. The asking price was so moderate that I felt guilty buying it, but I did.

The guitar obviously has all kinds of "vintage" value about it, but the greatest thing is that it is buy far the best playing musical instrument I have had in my hands. It has beatiful acoustic sound, and like a rainbow of tones when plugged in. The action can be set so low that you don't feel the frets.

I had one expert explain to me that much of the light, brilliant sound is due to the 5 piece neck.

This one has venetian cutaway unlike the florentian on your picture. My serial is 205810.

I will post some pictures as my project goes on.

Thank you again,

Hannu

[Danny W.]

 

Don't really have anything to add--just wanted to post the '64 that I owned for many years <_<

 

I will say that I don't usually fix stuff that's not broken. If you like the frets and the tuners work, don't worry about. Finding a good replacement fingerrest is a tougher problem, though--good luck with that!

 

I'd certainly would try a contact cleaner on the pots before taking anything apart.

 

Danny W.

[Hannu]

 

Don't really have anything to add--just wanted to post the '64 that I owned for many years <_<

 

I will say that I don't usually fix stuff that's not broken. If you like the frets and the tuners work, don't worry about. Finding a good replacement fingerrest is a tougher problem, though--good luck with that!

 

I'd certainly would try a contact cleaner on the pots before taking anything apart.

 

Danny W.

 

Thank you Danny, just out of curiosity, how did your '64 sound like, could you describe a little?

Hannu

[Danny W.]

Thank you Danny, just out of curiosity, how did your '64 sound like, could you describe a little?

Hannu

 

It's been eleven years since I played it, so I can't describe it in detail, but I can tell you that if I were six feet tall a Super 400 would be my gigging guitar, and, out of a number of really nice ones I have owned, that florentine was my favorite.

 

I have something of a story to go with it, too. First off, I really prefer my guitars to look like they are brand new, or close to it, no matter how long I've been playing them. When I was buying vintage guitars I passed on most of the guitars I came across because of condition. In the days before the web I really wanted a florentine Super 400 but was having trouble finding one. Back then I knew most of the guys who claimed to deal in vintage guitars and I had a number of them add me to their guitar-wanted list. Word got around that I was looking for one and suddenly one appeared, at a much higher price and in much worse shape than I had hoped for. I did some horse-trading for it (Old collecting joke: "A guy had a dog I was interested in, but he wanted $50,000 for it. I didn't have the cash so I traded him two $25,000 cats.)

 

When it arrived it had a great deal of neck-finish wear and virtually no frets (BTW, I hate "fretless-wonder" frets and would probably refret your Super 400 if it were mine). As previously stated, I like guitars to look new. I especially hate neck wear or dings or anything that keeps the neck from feeling like glass, and this guitar had a bunch of them. While I was up to doing the fret job, I didn't want to do the a neck refinish. I would have liked Gibson to do everything, but at the time they were quoting out in terms of years, so I sent it to a guy who was a small dealer and tech with a good rep. I had seen some of his work and it was excellent.

 

Months went by, much longer than he had quoted, and I hadn't heard from him, so I called and he seemed reluctant to talk with me. Finally, he spilled it--the guitar had been sitting in his basement workshop on a bench and somehow it had fallen to the concrete floor (I seem to think a cat was involved, but probably not a $25,000 one.) It apparently landed headstock first and there was a superficial neck crack and some headstock damage, which he had completely repaired. He had been afraid to call me, though, because he knew I had paid a bunch (even in trade) for it and that I had trusted him to do a great job.

 

To his credit, he did pretty well by me. He waived all charges for the fretting and refinish. He also replaced some inlay that had cracked or had been worn thin, and completely repaired any binding and finish chips. In addition, he sold me a guitar on his list that I had been interested at well below market price, and he personally delivered both guitars to me, about a 400-mile trip each way.

 

After his description of what had happened to the guitar, I had expected the worst, but I was astonished when I took the guitar out of the case. The neck refinish matched the body perfectly and looked factory original. The headstock damage and neck crack were invisible, as were all his many touch-ups. The new frets were immaculately done--really just perfect. At that point it would have been my favorite guitar if I were about 8" taller, but even though it was too big for me to play comfortably, I almost always had it out on a stand and would play it almost every day for about 30 minutes, by which time my right arm usually had gone numb.

 

It really did sound great too.

 

Danny W.

[Hannu]

It's been eleven years since I played it, so I can't describe it in detail, but I can tell you that if I were six feet tall a Super 400 would be my gigging guitar, and, out of a number of really nice ones I have owned, that florentine was my favorite.

 

I have something of a story to go with it, too. First off, I really prefer my guitars to look like they are brand new, or close to it, no matter how long I've been playing them. When I was buying vintage guitars I passed on most of the guitars I came across because of condition.

 

When it arrived it had a great deal of neck-finish wear and virtually no frets (BTW, I hate "fretless-wonder" frets and would probably refret your Super 400 if it were mine). As previously stated, I like guitars to look new. I especially hate neck wear or dings or anything that keeps the neck from feeling like glass, and this guitar had a bunch of them.

 

Danny W.

 

Danny,

Very interesting!

Yes, the Super 400 is an elephant. I am 5-11 but skinny and have long legs and short arms for my height. I can play the Super 400 OK when sitting down, just barely. I saw a picture of myself playing it standing up, ridiculous in the original meaning of the word. Like a small house walking on two skinny legs.

I have over the years developed just about the opposite preferences for vintage guitars. If they look new, I get very suspicious. This is what goes through my mind when I see a 40 year old new looking guitar: "There must be something wrong with it, the original didn't like it and kept it in the case for years. Or, has it been completely refurbished, if so, how?" And I am very suspicious if the bindings and inlays look too white. When I was a teenager, I obtained somehow a Hofner violin bass guitar, and javexed the creamy color parts to make it look better (this was 1966). Big mistake.

I like to see the fretboard to show wear marks just above each fret, and the frets worn evenly overall, not just around A major cord, where blues players often live.

With Gibson's, the wear comes nicely by itself, but with Fender guitars, I get rid of the polyurathane on the fretboard by first breaking the slippery glassy finish with steel wool, then playing it a lot with round wound strings, bending a lot etc. When it is down to the bare wood, I treat it with little Gibson fretboard oil, then more playing.

When the frets get really low, like they are in my Super 400, I keep watching that they have not developed sharp edges, if so, I carefully smoothen them with steel wool. I lower the strings first to where they buzz a little, then raise one turn. Now I have the "fretless wonder" that seems to play by itself. BTW, this may not work well with thin rock strings, I use flat wound .011 or 0.012 (wound g strings), then there is enough string tension for the "fretless wonder" to play clean. Of course the truss rod has be set right for whatever string tension.

 

Your experience with the repair guy reminds me to be careful choosing the right person to do the work when my new pickguard arrives from the shop. I suspect that original owner took the pickguard off because it over the years started to rattle. That would mean that the holes are most likely worn too big. Also, there are two extra holes which indicate a failed attempt to re-install the pickguard. So, installing my new one is going to be a luthier job. However, we have lots of guitar knowhow and resources in the Toronto area, and I will take my time in finding one with lots of experience with old archtops.

 

Hannu

[Danny W.]

Danny,

Very interesting!

Yes, the Super 400 is an elephant. I am 5-11 but skinny and have long legs and short arms for my height. I can play the Super 400 OK when sitting down, just barely. I saw a picture of myself playing it standing up, ridiculous in the original meaning of the word. Like a small house walking on two skinny legs.

I have over the years developed just about the opposite preferences for vintage guitars. If they look new, I get very suspicious. This is what goes through my mind when I see a 40 year old new looking guitar: "There must be something wrong with it, the original didn't like it and kept it in the case for years. Or, has it been completely refurbished, if so, how?" And I am very suspicious if the bindings and inlays look too white. When I was a teenager, I obtained somehow a Hofner violin bass guitar, and javexed the creamy color parts to make it look better (this was 1966). Big mistake.

I like to see the fretboard to show wear marks just above each fret, and the frets worn evenly overall, not just around A major cord, where blues players often live.

With Gibson's, the wear comes nicely by itself, but with Fender guitars, I get rid of the polyurathane on the fretboard by first breaking the slippery glassy finish with steel wool, then playing it a lot with round wound strings, bending a lot etc. When it is down to the bare wood, I treat it with little Gibson fretboard oil, then more playing.

When the frets get really low, like they are in my Super 400, I keep watching that they have not developed sharp edges, if so, I carefully smoothen them with steel wool. I lower the strings first to where they buzz a little, then raise one turn. Now I have the "fretless wonder" that seems to play by itself. BTW, this may not work well with thin rock strings, I use flat wound .011 or 0.012 (wound g strings), then there is enough string tension for the "fretless wonder" to play clean. Of course the truss rod has be set right for whatever string tension.

 

Your experience with the repair guy reminds me to be careful choosing the right person to do the work when my new pickguard arrives from the shop. I suspect that original owner took the pickguard off because it over the years started to rattle. That would mean that the holes are most likely worn too big. Also, there are two extra holes which indicate a failed attempt to re-install the pickguard. So, installing my new one is going to be a luthier job. However, we have lots of guitar knowhow and resources in the Toronto area, and I will take my time in finding one with lots of experience with old archtops.

 

Hannu

 

Let me just point out that when I was buying vintage guitars they weren't that old and it was much more common to find a guitar that hadn't been beaten up. My '64 florentine wasn't even ten years old when I bought it--the other guitar I got from the repair guy was a '65 L-5C that looked perfectly unplayed and had had no repairs or touch-ups of any kind. These days I don't buy vintage guitars, so I don't worry about it.

 

Here's a much shorter story: About ten years ago I sold a '94 red Wes that I had bought new to a guy who was active in another guitar forum. He posted on that site that the guitar looked like it had never been played. Up 'til then that had been my main guitar for my big-band playing and I had done more than 200 gigs and a bunch of rehearsals with it. There was no fret wear, there were no dings, there were no scuffs and there was almost no gold wear. I tried not to whack my guitars into bandstand hazards (I call gouges in the peghead binding "Zildjian scars") and I always wipe down the gold, strings and body with a chamois before putting the guitar back in the case. If there's sweat residue or oxidation where my arm rests I remove it when I get home (I currently like Fender's Mist & Wipe for this, which is available for less money as Meguairs Final Inspection). Consequently I have had 30-year-old guitars that look almost new despite having been played very much.

 

Let me also mention that I like yellowed binding and darkened natural finishes; when I have custom guitars made I specify aging toners. I don't mind if a guitar looks old--just not worn or damaged.

 

Danny W.

 

and a photo:

 

[Hannu]

Let me just point out that when I was buying vintage guitars they weren't that old and it was much more common to find a guitar that hadn't been beaten up. My '64 florentine wasn't even ten years old when I bought it--the other guitar I got from the repair guy was a '65 L-5C that looked perfectly unplayed and had had no repairs or touch-ups of any kind. These days I don't buy vintage guitars, so I don't worry about it.

 

Here's a much shorter story: About ten years ago I sold a '94 red Wes that I had bought new to a guy who was active in another guitar forum. He posted on that site that the guitar looked like it had never been played. Up 'til then that had been my main guitar for my big-band playing and I had done more than 200 gigs and a bunch of rehearsals with it. There was no fret wear, there were no dings, there were no scuffs and there was almost no gold wear. I tried not to whack my guitars into bandstand hazards (I call gouges in the peghead binding "Zildjian scars") and I always wipe down the gold, strings and body with a chamois before putting the guitar back in the case. If there's sweat residue or oxidation where my arm rests I remove it when I get home (I currently like Fender's Mist & Wipe for this, which is available for less money as Meguairs Final Inspection). Consequently I have had 30-year-old guitars that look almost new despite having been played very much.

 

Let me also mention that I like yellowed binding and darkened natural finishes; when I have custom guitars made I specify aging toners. I don't mind if a guitar looks old--just not worn or damaged.

 

Danny W.

 

and a photo:

 

 

Danny;

Yes, a well kept guitar will be played better, which will make it a better guitar. Clearly we are not subscribers of the "RoadWorn" culture. Which guitar is in the picture and what color is it, looks very red on my screen?

I take it that you played or still play with a big band. I could imagine that my "fretless wonder" setup would not be ideal for the style needed in there. I would guess that you'd want heavy strings and somewhat higher action to be able to play chords loud and clear ...

Hannu

[Danny W.]

Danny;

Yes, a well kept guitar will be played better, which will make it a better guitar. Clearly we are not subscribers of the "RoadWorn" culture. Which guitar is in the picture and what color is it, looks very red on my screen?

I take it that you played or still play with a big band. I could imagine that my "fretless wonder" setup would not be ideal for the style needed in there. I would guess that you'd want heavy strings and somewhat higher action to be able to play chords loud and clear ...

Hannu

 

That guitar is the red Wes Montgomery I mentioned in my reply; it was very red.

 

I set my guitars up with extremely low action (generally less than .050" at the 12th fret) and I use T-I Benson wound .012" strings on the archtops. I use the same guitars for big band and small group jazz, so I play a variety of stuff with the same setup.

 

The problem with fretless wonder frets is that they require more finger pressure to get a clean contact with the string, because your fingertips are pressing on the fretboard. They also make string bends much harder. Higher frets actually make for easier playing, but when they are too high the board starts feeling like railroad tracks. I find that Gibson's normal jumbo frets are perfect for me.

 

 

Here's my big band:

 

My link

 

Danny W.

[j45nick]

I take it that you played or still play with a big band. I could imagine that my "fretless wonder" setup would not be ideal for the style needed in there. I would guess that you'd want heavy strings and somewhat higher action to be able to play chords loud and clear ...

Hannu

 

 

Hannu,

Danny has been a professional guitarist for the last 50 years or so. That's one reason we listen carefully to what he has to say.

[Hannu]

Hannu,

Danny has been a professional guitarist for the last 50 years or so. That's one reason we listen carefully to what he has to say.

 

J45nick,

I hope I didn't come across as if I was argueing with Danny, he has tremendous depth and experience in these subjects. Also, he can describe things in very detail, like in the previous post, which helps us to recognize problems, differences etc.

Hannu

[Hannu]

That guitar is the red Wes Montgomery I mentioned in my reply; it was very red.

 

I set my guitars up with extremely low action (generally less than .050" at the 12th fret) and I use T-I Benson wound .012" strings on the archtops. I use the same guitars for big band and small group jazz, so I play a variety of stuff with the same setup.

 

The problem with fretless wonder frets is that they require more finger pressure to get a clean contact with the string, because your fingertips are pressing on the fretboard. They also make string bends much harder. Higher frets actually make for easier playing, but when they are too high the board starts feeling like railroad tracks. I find that Gibson's normal jumbo frets are perfect for me.

 

Danny W.

 

Danny;

 

Inspired by your post, I took a powerful magnifying glass on my three guitars, to see what the situation with the S-400 frets really is. I then tested my playing style with all three, playing scales first very slow, then faster.

 

This is what I discovered, and it's little different than I thought:

 

- the frets in the S-400 are only slightly lower (worn) than in my 3-month old Ibanez archtop ( Ibanez Medium Jumbos) and about the same or little higher than those in my old Fender Stratocaster ( thinner frets, played very little, no fret wear).

- when I play the S-400, the string does not touch the wood. If it did, the note would be out-of-tune, sharp, clearly. The only time I do touch the wood is if I bend-and-vibrate a semitone up, in which case one can control the pitch by not bending too much.

 

- the "fretless wonder" feel does not come from the worn frets as I thought. It comes from the shape of the neck, radius of the fingerboard and the way the frets have been tapered at ends. The Ibanez has similar tapering, but larger radius (more straight fingerboard). The Fender has similar radius of the fingerboard as the Gibson, but very little tapering of the fret edges.

- the Gibson and the Fender are 25 1/2 scale, the Ibanez is 24 3/4 scale. I think the 25 1/2 scale adds to the "fretless" feel.

- none of my guitars show really any wear of the fingerboard itself. Light markings above the frets, but no scalloping.

 

Thank you again for your post, it really helped me ...

Hannu

[Danny W.]

Hannu,

Danny has been a professional guitarist for the last 50 years or so. That's one reason we listen carefully to what he has to say.

 

Although I have been gigging regularly since 1957, I haven't relied on income from playing since about the mid-'70's. For most of the time since, it's barely paid for my guitar collecting.

 

But you're right, people should listen carefully to me, because I know my stuff!

 

Thanks for mentioning it!

 

 

 

 

J45nick,

I hope I didn't come across as if I was argueing with Danny, he has tremendous depth and experience in these subjects. Also, he can describe things in very detail, like in the previous post, which helps us to recognize problems, differences etc.

Hannu

 

Glad I could help.

 

Gibson's "fretless wonder" frets, found on '50's Les Paul Customs and some more recent models, are very low, square frets. I've found that when I play them I have to press really hard to maintain clean contact, which is not a good thing. When you said yours felt like fretless wonders, I probably took it more literally than necessary.

 

Danny W.

[stein]

Although I have been gigging regularly since 1957, I haven't relied on income from playing since about the mid-'70's. For most of the time since, it's barely paid for my guitar collecting.

 

But you're right, people should listen carefully to me, because I know my stuff!

 

Thanks for mentioning it!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea, well judging from your collection, "barely" paying for it would seem like what most would call a pretty good income.

 

It would seem that most incomes might "barely" cover it anyway.

 

*observation from listening carefully