TONE

[btoth76]

..If Bence, say, was to play my LP through my amp he would not sound like me...

 

Not for sure! But hearing that Pippy would sound like Rob at the end of the song:

 

 

 

Cheers... Bence

[pauloon]

Is it not just down to 'style' of playing then?......whether i use-pleck-teeth-gloves- fingers-SLIDE/BOTTLENECK...i sound like me (crappy!)...the 'sound' ,..tone?, will be different though...but my style/personality/emotion remains unchanged...

 

it's in the soul..not the fingers?..........................(same difference i suppose,my soul/personality/feeling/emotion can only be expressed though my fingers as i'm playing guitar!)

 

Same deal when i play 'footy'.....my soul/personality/feeling/emotion/ shines through in the same way,..and i'm using feet!......''clogger/chopper pauloon'':lol:

[Bender 4 Life]

i'm a nutjob that uses different tones for different tunes, and often for different versions of the same tune.

 

it still amazes me, the different ways one song can sound, different feelings it can convey, by use of a simple equipment swap.

 

I like to swap around between singlecoil and humbucker equipped guitars, tossing in the odd P-180 or twinblade single now & then, all in high quality guitars strung w/EB reg. cobalt or super Slinkys.

some of the guitars are bone stock, some lightly modded, some gutted & rebuilt, and a few i've built myself.

 

my amps are a simpler thing, either a Blackstar tube amp thru a Fender bass speaker (to darken it up) for "power" tones...or a Blues Jr. that I dropped into a custom cab and added a Jensen Vintage Ceramic series speaker to, that blends with the Fender Lightning stock speaker wonderfully....for "finesse" tones.

 

as for tubes i'm a complete lazy sinner....I run Ruby ecc83s & a NOS Tung Sol 12BH7 in the Blackstar...and have no problems running Groove Tubes in the Blues Jr.

 

i'm not on a "tonequest/chase" I just want to sound distinct.

[btoth76]

...it's in the soul...not the fingers...

 

...But the soul (for materialists: mind) controls the fingers.

 

Anyways, what we are debating here (I guess), whether the equipment is what defines the characteristics of a player, or is it the person itself.

 

Some say - like me - sound/tone (I'd prefer to call it character) comes from the touch of the individual, that's what makes His/Her playing recognizable, and the electronics only colour/enhance/louden what is fretted in that special way that is inimitable by anyone else.

 

On the other hand: the more harsher the equipment settings are (too much gain, over-effected amp) the less of nuances of playing are recognizable. I mean: If You ask Mr. Clapton to use Kerry King's gear, the result might be more like Kerry King was playing (but still not Him!). So I am contradicting myself, which is another proof that this subject is very fragile. This was an extreme example from the other side, tough.

 

Cheers... Bence

[Vestapol]

btoth76[/b]' timestamp='1354094841' post='1289413']

...But the soul (for materialists: mind) controls the fingers.

 

Anyways, what we are debating here (I guess), whether the equipment is what defines the characteristics of a player, or is it the person itself...Some say - like me - sound/tone (I'd prefer to call it character) comes from the touch of the individual, that's what makes His/Her playing recognizable, and the electronics only colour/enhance/louden what is fretted in that special way that is inimitable by anyone else...On the other hand: the more harsher the equipment settings are (too much gain, over-effected amp) the less of nuances of playing are recognizable. I mean: If You ask Mr. Clapton to use Kerry King's gear, the result might be more like Kerry King was playing (but still not Him!). So I am contradicting myself, which is another proof that this subject is very fragile. This was an extreme example from the other side, tough.

 

Reading what Bence, Btoth, Bender and others have written most recently brought a thought to mind. Many of the guitarists we admire most have both a tone and a style. Often I'll identify the guitarist playing a tune I've not heard because of his style of playing, and sometimes because his tone is distinctive.

 

As I ponder this, it seems the great guitarists I recognize easily have both a distinctive tone and their own style: Peter Green is a very good example. Brian May's another. Certainly B.B. King. Stevie Ray. EVH. And interestingly, with Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck, it's more their style than their tone that I recognize.

 

I'm realizing how hard it is to put into words the distinction between tone and style. But this thread is persuasive that tone is not just in the fingers, emotion, soul or mind.

 

Cheers,

[pauloon]

...But the soul (for materialists: mind) controls the fingers.

 

 

it's in the soul..not the fingers?..........................(same difference i suppose,my soul/personality/feeling/emotion can only be expressed though my fingers as i'm playing guitar!)

 

Thats what i was hinting at here.......listen to mark knopfler playing a strat===then a les paul.....sound/tone?...100% different......style/touch/feeling 100% the same.....

 

On the other hand: the more harsher the equipment settings are (too much gain, over-effected amp) the less of nuances of playing are recognizable. I mean: If You ask Mr. Clapton to use Kerry King's gear, the result might be more like Kerry King was playing (but still not Him!).

 

I think if clapton used the kerry king rig he would 'sound/tone?' same/similar to KK.....anyhoo i'm sure KK fans would know it was not KK....

 

I remember reading an article years ago...this geezer bought the exact rig of hank marvin.....and moaned that he sounded now't like hank marvin....the mags reply...

 

YOU'RE NOT HANK MARVIN..........................So my clapton/kerry king comparison seems a contradiction other than,...i'm pretty sure fans would know it wasn't kerry king playing....

 

The debate goes on...

 

Anyhoo......if your'e happy with your 'sound/tone' why worry ...

 

just stick to zappa's logic......Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar[biggrin] .

[btoth76]

Yes. Your last sentence makes the most sense in this debate. We are hunting butterflies here. Trying to express thoughts that we don't even understand what they are. Yes... Rock on! Cheers... Bence

[pippy]

Yesterday afternoon my good friend and fellow forumite Farnsbarns came over with his R8.

 

About half an hour or so after we had been playing I asked for a shot of his guit. I'd been playing for perhaps 15 seconds before he said 'Wow...it sounds totally different' or words to that effect.

 

Same guit; same amp; same settings; different player. Different Tone.

 

If you think I'm exaggerating then ask him.

 

 

P.

[btoth76]

Yesterday afternoon my good friend and fellow forumite Farnsbarns came over with his R8.

 

About half an hour or so after we had been playing I asked for a shot of his guit. I'd been playing for perhaps 15 seconds before he said 'Wow...it sound totally different' or words to that effect.

 

Same guit; same amp; same settings; different player. Different Tone.

 

If you think I'm exaggerating then ask him.

 

 

P.

 

Hello Pippy!

 

As I said earlier that's how I feel about it too. Then...I was thinking about it, - while sitting on the train back home - and realized why this question is such a subjective thing. As it seems to me, these days, (mainstream) guitarists tend to over-effect their tone to the point where it's nothing else is audible anymore than muddy noise.

 

It was different decades ago when I could tell who's playing just buy hearing a few notes of a song - not anymore. (Probably I am getting old).

 

Cheers... Bence

[pippy]

...this geezer bought the exact rig of hank marvin.....and moaned that he sounded now't like hank marvin....the mags reply...

 

YOU'RE NOT HANK MARVIN..........................

I couldn't possibly agree more.

 

Anyhoo......if your'e happy with your 'sound/tone' why worry ...

On which Note....(ho-ho-ho).....

 

 

P.

[pippy]

...As it seems to me, these days, (mainstream) guitarists tend to over-effect their tone to the point where it's nothing else is audible anymore than muddy noise.

 

It was different decades ago when I could tell who's playing just buy hearing a few notes of a song - not anymore. (Probably I am getting old).

Yup. Even Jimi Hendrix is a case in point.

 

Everyone equates Jimi with enormous armfulls of distortion and feedback but if you listen to his studio stuff the vast majority is full of great and mostly pretty 'clean' Tone.

 

At this point an interesting excercise would be for us all to really listen to his solo on 'Hey Joe' from 'Are You Experienced?'.

Very little overdrive. Now listen to the backing rhythm guitar tracks. Pefectly clean.

 

 

P.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

I have to pipe up here. Pippy is absolutely correct, I did go round to his house yesterday and that conversation did occur ( I'm sure I sounded less like a kids TV presenter than the way he writes it ;) ).

 

It really surprised me, I think my tone is very planted and solid when clean(ish) and I had twiddled my pots to get a "good enough" sound given that I had just plugged in to Pippy's amp without so much as looking at it (amp settings untouched from how he has it). When I handed it to him it was like a different guitar, he got that raw, un-clinical, stringy sound immediately.

 

Oh, BTW Pippy, I'm gonna run my supply of 10s down and re-setup for 11s.

 

 

The Hendrix thing too, I have only recently really listened to Jimi's sound. I mean REALLY listened, he's nearly completely clean nearly all the time. He gets this kind of honk going which is easily remembered as overdrive.

 

Someone mentioned BB King and trumpets. To him, that's what he's emulating....

 

[pippy]

Blue Peter missed their trick, methinks...

 

....he got that raw, un-clinical, stringy sound immediately....

So that's how my playing comes across, is it? Unsophisticated, Messy and Weedy?

 

Harrumph!

 

 

I'm trying to remember if you played my R0 much? If so is that why you are thinking about .011s?

 

I must admit I love them. Your '010s actually felt more like .009s (but that's possibly due to the 'extra bag of sugar' I was carrying when compared to my R0...LOL!)...

 

P.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Oh come now, you know what I mean. I was immediately jealous of you. I've always wanted that kind of loose early Clapton, Hendrix, Page kind of sound but what comes out if me is more a late Clapton, Moore kind of thing (subtract all the ability and talent of course),it's more of a narrow sound, more clarinet than electric guitar.

 

I dunno, trying to describe one's perception of tone is futile. To quote Aldous Huxley, "We live together, react to and rely on each other, yet always and in all circumstances we are alone."

[pippy]

Oh come now, you know what I mean...

Thanks greatly for the compliment, Farns, but I think I'm more right than you realise.

 

Well, perhaps not the Weedy bit (Thank You Les Paul and Leo Fender) but I think 'Unsophisticated' and 'Messy' (although not "wholly-") are quite apt and possibly even why I sound the way I do.

 

To take the cases of the players you mention;

Clapton's tonal approach/performance on the 'Beano' was deliberately 'Unsophisticated' - Raw as you put it earlier on in the thread. As was Hendrix's. And People frequently describe Page's live playing as being 'Messy' or 'Sloppy'.

 

On a far lower scale, of course, but I think that's perhaps roughly been my sort of style.

 

You, by comparison, have a much, Much greater grasp of theory than I'm ever likely to acquire and your technique is far more 'correct'.

Later Clapton and Gary Moore have/had much more technical prowess now than they did when they were younger. They became more 'Sophisticated' (although EC can still wring it out when the mood takes). Your playing is more Sophisticated than mine.

 

You know what you are doing; I'm winging it constantly. You could plan, in advance, to go from one '5th root diminished' to another and back again; I'll pretty much just see how it goes.

If I screw up then I'll just have to try to get myself out of the resultant mess as good as I can.

 

Mess. Again. See how often that word crops up when describing my approach?

 

I read an interview with Rory Gallagher where he was asked what he thought were the advantages of having played for so many years. "I can now get myself out of trouble easier!" was his reply.

 

 

Although, getting back 'On Topic', I will say I am very happy with my Tone...

 

P.

[btoth76]

...To quote Aldous Huxley, "We live together, react to and rely on each other, yet always and in all circumstances we are alone."

 

A + for that. That's my ars poetica and the ultimate conclusion I came to in my life. I would give You a second plus if I could, just for the fact of quoting A. Huxley alone.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Thanks greatly for the compliment, Farns, but I think I'm more right than you realise.

 

Well, perhaps not the Weedy bit (Thank You Les Paul and Leo Fender) but I think 'Unsophisticated' and 'Messy' (although not "wholly-") are quite apt and possibly even why I sound the way I do.

 

To take the cases of the players you mention;

Clapton's tonal approach/performance on the 'Beano' was deliberately 'Unsophisticated' - Raw as you put it earlier on in the thread. As was Hendrix's. And People frequently describe Page's live playing as being 'Messy' or 'Sloppy'.

 

On a far lower scale, of course, but I think that's perhaps roughly been my sort of style.

 

You, by comparison, have a much, Much greater grasp of theory than I'm ever likely to acquire and your technique is far more 'correct'.

Later Clapton and Gary Moore have/had much more technical prowess now than they did when they were younger. They became more 'Sophisticated' (although EC can still wring it out when the mood takes). Your playing is more Sophisticated than mine.

 

You know what you are doing; I'm winging it constantly. You could plan, in advance, to go from one '5th root diminished' to another and back again; I'll pretty much just see how it goes.

If I screw up then I'll just have to try to get myself out of the resultant mess as good as I can.

 

Mess. Again. See how often that word crops up when describing my approach?

 

I read an interview with Rory Gallagher where he was asked what he thought were the advantages of having played for so many years. "I can now get myself out of trouble easier!" was his reply.

 

 

Although, getting back 'On Topic', I will say I am very happy with my Tone...

 

P.

 

Hmm, I'd rather sound like you do "winging it" than like I do "Knowing what I'm doing". I'm sure there's an "all my words come back to me in shades of mediocrity" aspect to this. I.e. greener grass when you're playing but that aside, I say with complete honesty and no agenda, I am certain you're the better player.

[pippy]

Someone mentioned BB King and trumpets. To him, that's what he's emulating....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMqRqVUyobM

I could probably listen to that man for the rest of time and not tire of hearing his tone.

 

Simply Peerless.

 

Thanks for posting that, Farns (and I'll learn those licks by heart)....

 

BTW : obviously the person who put it up on youtube had never heard of the great saxophonist, singer and bandleader, Louis Jordan; or as they wrote, "Louise..."

 

 

 

P.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

I must say I haven't, I assumed that he meant trumpet when he said horn.

 

BTW just changed those strings. Interesting you thought they were 9s, I just started a thread about them in the lounge because D'addarios are noticeably heavier for the same gauge.

[Vestapol]

I must say I haven't, I assumed that he meant trumpet when he said horn...

 

Louis Jordan and his Tympani Five. I just happen to have their CD cued in my car. They were big during WWII and wrote a lot of dance tunes for the GIs. I believe they did USO tours as well. They were a pretty tight ensemble and added lots of humor to their jazz-boogie-woogie dance tunes, like the classic "Five Guys Named Mo". The world needed to laugh during the War.

 

Cheers,

[pippy]

...Louis Jordan and his Tympani Five...

It's odd the places Louis Jordan crops up.

 

I had pretty much grown up hearing that style of music as my father - whose main passion was 'Classical' - was a huge fan of such players as Fats Waller, Louis Jordan, Louis Armstrong and their ilk.

He had the greatest respect for musicians who could bring such infectious enthusiasm and wit into their playing. Chico Marx was another wonderful example but Fats Waller was the undisputed King.

 

Furthermore, once we bought a telly (I was about 10 before we had a TV!) many of Jordan's songs could be heard in various episodes of 'Tom & Jerry' - such as that sung by Spike, the bulldog, to his son; "Is You Is, or Is You Ain't My Baby?"

 

I still have a few albums of his on vinyl and one LJ CD, a 16 track 'Best of' type compilation. He and Fats Waller, between them, share quite a bit of playtime 'round these parts.

 

Interestingly enough one of the very best blues bands on the 'pub & club' circuit in Scotland when I was in my late teens/ealy twenties ('78-'83-ish) was a three piece led by a fantastic guitarist named George Ross Watt.

His band carried a few names over the years, the best-known being 'Big George and the Business'. Chatting with him he would tell of his great love of Rory Gallagher and much of RG's stuff found it's way into the show but his repertoire also included many tracks which were, if not written by, at least recorded by Louis Jordan; 'Choo-Choo Ch'boogie'; The aforementioned 'Is You Is...'; 'Let the Good Times Roll'; 'Reet, Petite and Gone'; 'What's the Use of Getting Sober (If You're Gonna Get Drunk Again)' and 'Cal'donia' were all included although not all of them at all of the gigs.

 

They made a great impression on me....

 

P.