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Gibson Low-Impedance Guitars Club Les Pauls, L5-S', Basses.

#41 User is offline   daveg 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:35 AM

View PostGrog, on 15 May 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

I tried pluging a standard XLR mic in the XLR jack, no sound. The last listing I was following stated that the mic jack didn't work also. Didn't they wire some of the older mics differently. It looks as if I am the first person to plug anything into the jack, I doubt it's a malfunction. Any ideas?


Grog,

If you examine the Guitar Lead which comes with the Transformer you "should" find that it is UNBALANCED? That is what is required for an LPR. My lead is unbalanced.

The goose neck microphone could be the same?

I haven't seen a Personal Wiring Diagram in a long time but it might be worth investigating one?

DG
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#42 User is offline   btoth76 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:56 AM

I might be completely wrong, but the Personal's output jack is stereo, isn't it? One of the output terminals assigned for the mic signal... :-k

Cheers... Bence
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2010 Gibson LP Studio 50's Tribute GT - 2011 Gibson LP Classic Custom AN - 1978 Gibson LP Recording WB - 2011 Gibson L6S SB
2016 Epiphone Les Paul ES WR
2010 Fender FSR Standard Ash Telecaster Butterscotch Blonde (Baja modded)
- 2013 Fender American Special Stratocaster SG
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#43 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:28 AM

View Postdaveg, on 16 May 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Grog,

If you examine the Guitar Lead which comes with the Transformer you "should" find that it is UNBALANCED? That is what is required for an LPR. My lead is unbalanced.

The goose neck microphone could be the same?

I haven't seen a Personal Wiring Diagram in a long time but it might be worth investigating one?

DG


I'll have to take it apart & look when I get home. I brought it over to a friends house yesteday to show him & we tried a few of his mics, he had a few old ones & it didn't seem to make any difference. This wasn't a super popular feature, or all Les Pauls would be sporting a mic jack today! I found this schematic reference on line...............

http://www.sommercab...ne/nf_kabel.htm
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#44 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:37 AM

I found the schematic, it is unbalanced...........

http://www.gibson.co.../LPPersonal.PDF

P.S. The schematic was redrawn in 1975, it does show a stereo output jack, one lead for the mic? Whats with that??
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#45 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:32 AM

View Postbtoth76, on 16 May 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

I might be completely wrong, but the Personal's output jack is stereo, isn't it? One of the output terminals assigned for the mic signal... :-k

Cheers... Bence


Hi Bence, it looks like you hit the nail on the head, the guitar does seem to have a stereo jack, if not just to have a special lead to send the mic to a different amp. It looks like I might have to make up a special chord, and find a unbalanced mic. Here is a quote from a web page....


"The guitar's output jack is a regular 1/4" jack (although the LPP's is stereo so you can pluck the microphone signal off separately). The transformer's XLR connection uses only 2-conductors (signal and ground), which I think makes it an unbalanced line. Once you get the cord plugged in the correct way, you can begin to muck around with all the switches and controls."
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#46 User is offline   btoth76 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:00 AM

View PostGrog, on 16 May 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

...
"The guitar's output jack is a regular 1/4" jack (although the LPP's is stereo so you can pluck the microphone signal off separately). The transformer's XLR connection uses only 2-conductors (signal and ground), which I think makes it an unbalanced line. Once you get the cord plugged in the correct way, you can begin to muck around with all the switches and controls."


Hello Grog!

Yes, that's what I've read somewhere too!

By the way, I got mine Shure A85F transformer. I've connected it into a regular tube amp with a male XLR-mono Jack cable, which has been modified (Pin 1 and 3 connected on the cable). It now has the proper volume with the Low-Z output. Is it OK to connect this way? I just want to be sure I am doing everything right...

Thanks in advance... Bence
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2010 Gibson LP Studio 50's Tribute GT - 2011 Gibson LP Classic Custom AN - 1978 Gibson LP Recording WB - 2011 Gibson L6S SB
2016 Epiphone Les Paul ES WR
2010 Fender FSR Standard Ash Telecaster Butterscotch Blonde (Baja modded)
- 2013 Fender American Special Stratocaster SG
Böhm-Regent amplification

VOX Wah V845 - Ibanez effects - Zoom MS-50G - Stereo Tremolo Pan - EP Booster - Diablo Plus
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#47 User is offline   daveg 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

View Postbtoth76, on 16 May 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Hello Grog!

Yes, that's what I've read somewhere too!

By the way, I got mine Shure A85F transformer. I've connected it into a regular tube amp with a male XLR-mono Jack cable, which has been modified (Pin 1 and 3 connected on the cable). It now has the proper volume with the Low-Z output. Is it OK to connect this way? I just want to be sure I am doing everything right...

Thanks in advance... Bence



Bence,

Here is the AMPLIFIER end of my cable:

Posted Image

On the subject of the LPP output:

If you look at pictures of Les with his White Personal it begins to make more sense. It looks like he has a short Stereo Lead coming out of the guitar into the Paulveriser and the amp lead comes from there. The mike lead possibly went down the same cable which went to the hidden gear offstage.

Why would the schematic have been updated in '75 (as it clearly shows) - the guitar went out of production in 70/71?

DG
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#48 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:19 PM

Using the supplied or standard guitar jack, the mic circuit would be shorted, or grounded out. That along with the fact that is is unbalanced, I had two factors against me. I 'll have to make a box, or my own Les Paulverizer, that will split the guitar & the mic into their own amps. Or, get a stereo jack & possibly join the tip & first ring together & adapt it to a standard 1/4 jack. Then Guitar & mic will both go into the same amp.......
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#49 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:53 PM

I took the guitar apart, pins 1-G-2 are all soldered together & it looks like pin 3 is hot. Its hard to get a good photo, the wires are short...........

Posted Image
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#50 User is offline   btoth76 

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:23 AM

View Postdaveg, on 16 May 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Bence,

Here is the AMPLIFIER end of my cable:

Posted Image

...
DG


Hello Dave!

Sorry for being a fool, but I am new to this very interesting model, as You know. :)

If You read the manual for the transformer, it says, for low-impedance (19 to 75 Ohms) connect pins 1 and 3 on the XLR-end of the transformer. I didn't disassemble the transformer, instead I did that on the XLR end of the guitar cable. Does it make any difference, or shall I make this conversion on the transformer itself?

(Please refer to document: http://cdn.shure.com...pro_a95u_ug.pdf - "LOW IMPEDANCE SELECTION" section)

Thank You again, and sorry for disturbing...

Cheers... Bence
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2010 Gibson LP Studio 50's Tribute GT - 2011 Gibson LP Classic Custom AN - 1978 Gibson LP Recording WB - 2011 Gibson L6S SB
2016 Epiphone Les Paul ES WR
2010 Fender FSR Standard Ash Telecaster Butterscotch Blonde (Baja modded)
- 2013 Fender American Special Stratocaster SG
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#51 User is offline   daveg 

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:09 AM

You can only do this inside the Transformer housing using the recommended settings.(Connect ORANGE to 3 instead of YELLOW)?

Do you need to do it??

If you are mainly using the guitar through an amp I would leave it alone. If you are using it with a recording desk all of the time (as I do) then it is worth doing.

Try it before proceeding??

DG
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#52 User is offline   btoth76 

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:46 AM

Hello Dave and thank You again!

Everything seems to work right with this stock transformer and the modded cable (through amp). I just wanted to be extra sure.

It's very unlikely that I will ever use it with a recording desk. Although, I got curious about the Laney AH100 Audio Hub which has a Low-Z input as well.

Why I am still asking this, is that without the outboard transformer, the guitar was almost inaudible using the Low-Z output - which is normal. So until I got my Shure transformer I was using the High-Z output. But now, I don't feel such a huge improvement in sound quality, it's like the two outputs are completely identical now. Just one of them needs the Shure transformer(?).

Cheers... Bence
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2010 Gibson LP Studio 50's Tribute GT - 2011 Gibson LP Classic Custom AN - 1978 Gibson LP Recording WB - 2011 Gibson L6S SB
2016 Epiphone Les Paul ES WR
2010 Fender FSR Standard Ash Telecaster Butterscotch Blonde (Baja modded)
- 2013 Fender American Special Stratocaster SG
Böhm-Regent amplification

VOX Wah V845 - Ibanez effects - Zoom MS-50G - Stereo Tremolo Pan - EP Booster - Diablo Plus
Bayus straps (http://bayus.eu)
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#53 User is offline   daveg 

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:41 AM

View Postbtoth76, on 17 May 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

Hello Dave and thank You again!

Everything seems to work right with this stock transformer and the modded cable (through amp). I just wanted to be extra sure.

It's very unlikely that I will ever use it with a recording desk. Although, I got curious about the Laney AH100 Audio Hub which has a Low-Z input as well.

Why I am still asking this, is that without the outboard transformer, the guitar was almost inaudible using the Low-Z output - which is normal. So until I got my Shure transformer I was using the High-Z output. But now, I don't feel such a huge improvement in sound quality, it's like the two outputs are completely identical now. Just one of them needs the Shure transformer(?).

Cheers... Bence


I think that if you plug the guitar into a mixer or a multi-track (Low Impedance) and use headphones you will be able to hear much more than you can through an amp (with or without the Transformer). The difference between the extreme settings of the Decade, Bass and Treble become MUCH more obvious. Through a Peavey Amp I was able to detect the difference between 3 and 8 easily on Low Impedance. On High Impedance and especially with a longer lead it is not so easy to detect. It becomes muddy.

Remember that the Personal (Professional) has no built-in Transformer. It was always intended to be used with an external T/F at the amp end. It was only because users of the Personal / Professional were losing their leads or leaving them at home that Gibson were "forced" to put the T/F in the body (switched) in the LPR. That's not the way that Les intended or used his own guitars. It's a compromise. You lose the Highs on High Impedance with longer leads.

Comparing Decade 8, Bass 10 and Treble 10 on Low and High will not produce that much of a difference. It is when you vary the settings that the differences occur.

DG
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#54 User is offline   btoth76 

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:12 AM

Hello Dave!

Ok, it's clear now. I'll definitely try it with a mixer. Although, the different settings are quite obvious, even with the High-Z mode, I just assumed I would be able to hear further improvements with the Shure device on the Low-Z.

I prefer the Decade 2,5,8 positons in mode 1 (with EQs bypassed).

Thank You, - especially for Your patience with me! Your help is highly appreciated!

Best wishes... Bence
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2010 Gibson LP Studio 50's Tribute GT - 2011 Gibson LP Classic Custom AN - 1978 Gibson LP Recording WB - 2011 Gibson L6S SB
2016 Epiphone Les Paul ES WR
2010 Fender FSR Standard Ash Telecaster Butterscotch Blonde (Baja modded)
- 2013 Fender American Special Stratocaster SG
Böhm-Regent amplification

VOX Wah V845 - Ibanez effects - Zoom MS-50G - Stereo Tremolo Pan - EP Booster - Diablo Plus
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#55 User is offline   daveg 

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:27 PM

I agree with your findings about the Decade positions.

There appear to be only three MAJOR sounds - mine are on 3, 5 and 8.

Try this:

Controls

DG
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#56 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:27 PM

I pulled out my photo lights & took a few shots.............

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

It made me kind of nervous laying the three guitars against the amp, the outside guitars were barely hanging in there. I wasn't going to chance a retake... [scared]
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#57 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:22 PM

One final note on the mic jack. I inserted the 1/4 guitar plug only part way into the jack, to make the tip contact with the part of the jack that would connect on the center ring of a stereo plug. I connected a balanced low impedance mic into the XLR jack on the upper bout, & it worked!! A bit lower in volume due to the mic not being unbalanced, but it worked.......... [thumbup]
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#58 User is offline   btoth76 

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:09 AM

Hello Grog!

Have You seen this article?

http://www.gibsongui...Hollowbody.aspx

Cheers... Bence
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2010 Gibson LP Studio 50's Tribute GT - 2011 Gibson LP Classic Custom AN - 1978 Gibson LP Recording WB - 2011 Gibson L6S SB
2016 Epiphone Les Paul ES WR
2010 Fender FSR Standard Ash Telecaster Butterscotch Blonde (Baja modded)
- 2013 Fender American Special Stratocaster SG
Böhm-Regent amplification

VOX Wah V845 - Ibanez effects - Zoom MS-50G - Stereo Tremolo Pan - EP Booster - Diablo Plus
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#59 User is offline   Grog 

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:09 AM

View Postbtoth76, on 22 May 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Hello Grog!

Have You seen this article?

http://www.gibsongui...Hollowbody.aspx

Cheers... Bence


Hi Bence,

No I've never seen that particular artical before, but I do have the advertisement with the "Wild Eyed Guy".
Thanks for pointing it out! Thats's the first artical I have ever seen that pointed out that the Bass & Guitar pickups are all the same,
even the bridge & neck pickup on the guitar are the same. I noticed it in my parts catalogs from that era but have never seen it anywhere else in print.

George
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#60 User is offline   mikef 

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:18 AM

This will probably get me lynched but what do you think about the Ibanez LPR copies? This one is of such a high quality that decades ago I declined to trade it for a real (Gibson) one after playing them both for a couple of hours in the same shop I found the Ibanez. It was in the broken and abandoned back room so I got it for just a few English pounds. Took me a while to restore it but as you can see it's perfect now. I made a pick guard out of perspex (plexiglass) using a LPR picture as a template and the tremolo arm is a strange bigsby alike I found in a junk shop. All the controls seem to do what they should and the sounds are spot on EXCEPT..

1) The phase switch is wired wrongly so that "in" is "out" and vice versa

2) THE BIG SURPRISE is that the decade "switch" has ONLY 3 POSITIONS. All very noticeably different. This seems to match the comments I see about the 11 postion decade on the real ones. Anyone know anything about this? Seems like Ibanez found the same thing and made a mod ??

Just so you know, I am a Gibson fan through and through. My 1962 mint ES175D is the love of my life.

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