Two 1990 J 200-Fred specials on ebay

[TM]

Fred, J185me, broke the story on these guitars a few years back. the bodies were built with some stashed, European Sycamore as I recall. Fred will can tell the story. I happened on one of these a few years back. It was a sunburst. A great J 200 and just a little above the ordinary. A bit of Bozeman lore. There are two on ebay that are virtually unplayed, both blonde.

 

Here andHere.

 

Have yourself a Merry Christmans with these. I will be in the hunt if the guitar I look at tonight does not work out.

 

Hey Fred tell the story again.

 

Forgot to mention a special blonde J-185 on ebay. I'm waiting on the serial number to confirm.

 

Terry

[zombywoof]

The sycamore thing sounds like Gibson was following the late-1980s to early-1990s Martin D-16 example using sustainable woods.

[TM]

Fred will be around sometime with the details. I recall the wood was left over for some reason and had been around for some time.

 

The J-185 may be from the same batch as mine which were built for Jackson Browne when he went on a tour. The number should clear that up. I have talked a dealer that has one also. Very nice guitars, again a little something extra with Bozeman lore.

[J-1854Me]

Terry,

 

I have probably mentioned this in previous threads, and in various forums, over a number of years.

 

And perhaps Hogeye can provide some additional insights too.

 

My understanding was that "back in the day" when the Bozeman plant got its start (1988-89), and as they were gearing up with equipment, supplies, designs, etc., a volume of wood was provided by the Gibson plant in Nashville, which at the time, had historically produced not only electrics, but also acoustics. Although, during the mid- to late-80s, acoustic production was pretty small, being as Eric had not yet released his "unplugged" album, and it was the era of Big Hair shredder bands.

 

So, as the story was told me, Nashville had a bunch of nicely aged maple sitting around in the plant, and that *might* have already been on hand in Kalamazoo (although no one has ever indicated that it was). That maple was sent from Nashville to Bozeman for use in constructing new acoustic guitars. And it turned out that that maple was European maple, or sycamore. (I'm not a plant biologist so don't ask me about genus and species etc.)

 

Some folks I knew of at the time (fingerstyle whiz John Standifer, who was with Gibson dealer Beacock Music in Vancouver Washington and Ren Ferguson to name a few) had praised early Bozeman maple guitars made with this wood highly. "If you EVER find an early sycamore J-200 or J-100, BUY IT! -- they're GREEEEAT!"

 

The very first day we got an internet hookup at the house, I happened across a 1989 J-100 on Elderly's website, and with no hesitation, bought it. It was one these 'sycamore' guitars: a kind of micro-stippled fairly plain figure in the wood. Typically, even the more figured wood was mildly figured. In 1999, I took that guitar with me on a trip and stopped in to visit Ren at Bozeman; here he is with that guitar:

 

Though I don't own that guitar anymore (I think it's actually living in Kalamazoo these days), it was everything that Ren and John and others had said -- dry, woody, big sound, articulate. All in all, a great guitar.

 

My sense is that this stash of aged sycamore/Euro maple was used definitely in all 1989 maple guitars, which -- at that time -- included both the J-200 and the J-100 models, and was used through 1990 on various maple-bodied models. This would include the Dove and the J-185 model too. It's pretty hard to discern whether the sycamore was used for any of these models into 1991 but you can normally get a good idea from the appearance of the wood.

 

The two ebay J-200s from 1990 that Terry linked in the earlier posts are good examples, as is the J-200 that Ryanfender has:

 

Over in Maine, Scott -- ksdaddy -- also has one of these, an '89 J-200, IIRC.

 

Fred

[merseybeat1963]

The sycamore thing sounds like Gibson was following the late-1980s to early-1990s Martin D-16 example using sustainable woods.

 

You know its not the Sycamore known in here in the US Z ,right?

It's a European/English Maple.

Much of what Gibson used was Quartersawn.

[JuanCarlosVejar]

Fred ,

 

Gryphon Stringed Instruments has a lefty 1990 J 200 . could that be from the same batch of aged maple or sycamore ?

 

 

http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpix/39544/39544.php

 

 

thanks

 

 

 

JC

[ryanfender]

Yep, I still have my Sycamore J-200 shown in the pictures above. Great guitar, probably the best J-200 I have played out of about 50 over the years. I will probably die with it. Happy to give test drive for those in the Washington, DC area. A little unknown info on my J-200: it was played by Glenn Frey at the Bob Hope Classic Golf Tourney in the 90s. Supposed it was shown on TV but I have never been able to find it.

 

 

 

[Motherofpearl]

GAS! Fred thanks for the info this was a great thread!

I was curious about the backs seen these prior. I wasn't even sure if they were real gibsons.

[merseybeat1963]

This is the back of the first one.

http://s1146.beta.photobucket.com/user/merseybeat1963/media/DSC01127.jpg.html?sort=3&o=17

http://s1146.beta.photobucket.com/user/merseybeat1963/media/DSC01128.jpg.html?sort=3&o=16

[J-1854Me]

Fred ,

 

Gryphon Stringed Instruments has a lefty 1990 J 200 . could that be from the same batch of aged maple or sycamore ?

 

 

http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpix/39544/39544.php

 

 

thanks

 

 

 

JC

 

Hey JC, to me it looks like that same wood. Usually they select fairly flamey (or otherwise figured) wood for J-200s, but this stuff just doesn't seem to present in highly figured pieces. Once they switched away from (i.e., ran out of) it, they had some Really figured stuff, and that looks quite distinct. So my guess is that one is built of that same stuff.

 

Fred

[ryanfender]

Sycamore (like the pictures of those J-200 back) has a very distinct pattern almost like cheetah fur. Sort of a speckled texture. The sides of mine show this while the back is less so. In pictures its hard to see the fine details.

 

Sometimes it can look like this, of course the stain exaggerates the effect:

 

[frenchie1281734003]

I have only heard the one J-200 that had European Maple/Sycamore back and sides, and that was an early 1990 model. It also had the "Fullerplast" finish, but sounded lovely and well balanced. However according to my copy of "Gibson`s fabulous flat-top guitars", this wood wasn`t rated as highly as the U.S. variety! This I quote from page 147 of the book:-

 

"In March 1993 Gibson decided to build the J-200 with Eastern American hard Maple, rather than the European equivalent that had been used for many years. This exchange of foreign Maple for the domestic supply results in a tonal difference greater than that between Indian and Brazilian varieties of Rosewood. Eastern hard Maple is much more dense than the European counterpart. Not only is it SUPERIOR tonally, but it`s figure takes on a striking beauty when stained and finished".

 

Now my 2010 J-200 which has the Eastern hard Maple B&S is a very fine sounding guitar indeed, even at this early stage of it`s life, but I think I would like to get to know one of these early Bozeman J-200`s with the softer European Maple wood and Fullerplast finish better, as I think it may impart a bit more warmth and balance to it`s tone that appeals to me.

 

Steve.

[62burst]

...And the coolest acoustic guitar photo of the week goes to ryanfender for post #11.

 

The J-100 with Ren really illustrates how incomplete the super jumbo looks without it's complimentary bridge following the contour of the lower bout. The standard teardrop p/g brings the drama down a notch, as well.

 

Good info, all. Thx.

[merseybeat1963]

Sycamore (like the pictures of those J-200 back) has a very distinct pattern almost like cheetah fur. Sort of a speckled texture. The sides of mine show this while the back is less so. In pictures its hard to see the fine details.

 

Sometimes it can look like this, of course the stain exaggerates the effect:

 

 

The guitar pictured is this: http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/sycamore/

http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/hardwoods/exotic_hardwoods/domestic_wood/american_sycamore_lumber/american_sycmore_wood.html

 

What Gibson used is this: http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/sycamore-maple/#pics (scroll down to more images and you see the quartersawn figured variety)

http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/hardwoods/exotic_hardwoods/exotic_wood/english_sycamore_lumber/english_sycamore_wood.html

[merseybeat1963]

I have only heard the one J-200 that had European Maple/Sycamore back and sides, and that was an early 1990 model. It also had the "Fullerplast" finish, but sounded lovely and well balanced. However according to my copy of "Gibson`s fabulous flat-top guitars", this wood wasn`t rated as highly as the U.S. variety! This I quote from page 147 of the book:-

 

"In March 1993 Gibson decided to build the J-200 with Eastern American hard Maple, rather than the European equivalent that had been used for many years. This exchange of foreign Maple for the domestic supply results in a tonal difference greater than that between Indian and Brazilian varieties of Rosewood. Eastern hard Maple is much more dense than the European counterpart. Not only is it SUPERIOR tonally, but it`s figure takes on a striking beauty when stained and finished".

 

Now my 2010 J-200 which has the Eastern hard Maple B&S is a very fine sounding guitar indeed, even at this early stage of it`s life, but I think I would like to get to know one of these early Bozeman J-200`s with the softer European Maple wood and Fullerplast finish better, as I think it may impart a bit more warmth and balance to it`s tone that appeals to me.

 

Steve.

 

I was watching a BBC television program part of which focused on 1066 and William the Conqueror, the guy was basically changing the facts of history right before my eyes.

Fabulous Flattop guitars seems to be doing the same.

 

Its usually all about the money in business. The European variety costs more..period. Add to that quartersawn & shipping...and Gibson is going to domestic.

The European variety is the best maple for building acoustic instruments...pretty much period.

The most famous stringed instruments /violins in history were made out of it.

How much of that "better" Gibson gets out of the guitar..I dont know...

 

From what I read a luthier comparing woods said the hard maple was the worst for acoustic guitars.

The species Gibson seems to use in they're acoustics is the softer one (Janka 950) for B&S... am I mistaken about this?

 

This is a picture off my bench at home. http://s1146.beta.photobucket.com/user/merseybeat1963/media/DSC01717.jpg.html?sort=3&o=16

Plainsawn/Slab cut Curly Maple.. the domestic slightly softer one..I had flooring made out of this for our kitchen..(God knowns when Ill finally install it).

I wanted a floor that looked like the back of my J200, this is the closest I could afford.

The price selecting out the more figured stuff of the lot came to $6.85 a liner ft...in comparison...the English Sycamore/Maple Quartersawn was aprox $21-24 a liner ft.

[TM]

Thanks Fred!

 

Great story, information again. You need to keep a copy of your presentation to post for future generations. I've collected vintage Gibson flat tops for a few years. I own some nice guitars, pretty long list. I just picked up a 1965 Gibson Country Western, a beautiful guitar. I will post some pics when I get it photoed.

 

The vintage Gibson flat tops are a crazy bunch. The last few years more information is coming out, but there is a lot left unknown and much probably well never be able to be documented. At least not like a Martin guitar. This has always made Gibson an interesting company. I believe it had continued with Gibson today, at least for awhile. They still confuse people with all the models, different bracing etc, etc.

 

I'm to old to start on Bozeman era collecting, but I believe there are some very interesting guitars out there and these J200 are one of them. Fred's story is good documentation to me.

 

I would love to find one of the small batch of Nick Lucas Gibson built a few years back. 12 fret mahogany like the 1929 models that went to the bigger bodies. I have seen a couple for sale, but wasn't in the money at the time.

 

I see offers on one of the 200s. I have owned a couple of vintage J200 and played a couple of new ones. One guitar I think Gibson has improved on.

 

Terry

[frenchie1281734003]

I really like the tone of this particular 1990 J-200. Did the early Bozeman made ones have the 60s style jumbo frets? As the newer ones feel more like medium jumbo frets.

 

 

Steve.

[J-1854Me]

 

I would love to find one of the small batch of Nick Lucas Gibson built a few years back. 12 fret mahogany like the 1929 models that went to the bigger bodies. I have seen a couple for sale, but wasn't in the money at the time.

 

I see offers on one of the 200s. I have owned a couple of vintage J200 and played a couple of new ones. One guitar I think Gibson has improved on.

 

Terry

 

Terry -- I have one the earlier (1928, FON 8989) 12-fret NL, and one of the most recent ones (2012) built by Ren, sort of a matched pair.

 

I didn't put up a post about it here, but I did over on AGF in the summer.

 

This be them:

 

 

One Kalamazoo, one Bozeman.

 

Fred

[merseybeat1963]

And this is a 20th Anniversary Bozeman J-200 using Quartersawn European Maple (also known as English Sycamore) ..as were the first ones...for sale at just under $5k at Wildwood.

http://wildwoodguitars.com/products/02799055.php?CategoryID=89&n=12#

[TM]

and one of the most recent ones (2012) built by Ren

 

So Cool! I have not seen that guitar, I don't remember that post. please post a link if it is still up somewhere.

 

I even commented in a recent L1 thread. I had not seen those either. I asked a question about the side depth but no one replied. I gather they were built in Nick Lucas depth. another cool guitar are the Harlem Slim L1. deep body.

 

this is x braced? the originals with that bridge typically were x braced as the L1 with that bridge.

 

your old timer is pretty sweet. send me a link I want to hear what you have to say about the guitar.

 

do you know the run of big body 12 fret Nick Lucas maybe as long as five years ago? one of them created a mess of words on here a few years back. i should have bought that guitar from that guy because he couldn't live with it not being perfect.

 

while i got you. I sent the Blonde J-185 to Jim Grainger this week. he will be getting back to me. i'm also planning a Gibson show and history lesson with my local guitar shop. I will get an invite out here. I will be showing my stuff, or what i have and that could be interesting on its own.

 

 

And this is a 20th Anniversary Bozeman J-200 using Quartersawn European Maple (also known as English Sycamore) ..as were the first ones...for sale at just under $5k at Wildwood.

 

very nicely done. Two out there BIN. I have an excuse and I will post some pics when I get a chance. I would have saved money buying either one of these guitars. They are more than lore, they have it in sound.

[TM]

As the newer ones feel more like medium jumbo frets.

 

Good question, but I don't know. I don't have a newer Gibson here. I'd write those guys on ebay that have their shop listed. they could probably give you a better answer, at least they know what frets are I would assume.

 

mine played nice, I got a good deal buying and selling that one. And the new owner was very pleased with the guitar. He agreed it was special.

 

write them.

[J-1854Me]

Terry

 

The link is here: LINK TO AGF ACOUSTIC FORUM POST ON TWO NICK LUCAS GUITARS

 

No, it's braced as the original is, in what some folks call the 'Lazy A' pattern.

 

Btw, those "20th Anniversary '89 re-issue J-200" models utilize a way flamier maple for the neck than the originals generally did.

 

Fred

[TM]

Thanks for that link Fred. I did not see that post. I had no idea. That guitar is a Nick Lucas Special, Special.

 

Who made that bridge, I want that person's name. That looks like quality work. I have an original 7 pin bridge from an old L1. be cool to have a duplicate made for another guitar.

 

thanks again, stayed tuned for the J-185 update in a few months.

 

Terry