1952 SJ-200. Is this a prototype?

[Soloshifter]

 I bought this SJ-200 at a local auction about ten years ago and now I'm looking to sell it to help put my daughter through university.  Unfortunately the auction house that sold it to me didn't provide me with the guitar's history.  The guitar doesn't have a serial number but has an FON number - Z 1234 27.  That dates the guitar to 1952.

There are 4 things about this guitar that makes me think it might have been an experimental prototype.  1) the pickguard's design is like 1955 issue, but the color and texture of the floral design is different to anything else that I've seen; 2)  the nut is much larger than normal for this guitar; 3) the truss rod cover is missing, but it is missing a bottom screw hole, so I assume there never was one; 4) the dot above the "i"  on the Gibson logo is missing which is not normal for this year.

While everything above the nut appears rough, everything below the nut appears to be in near mint condition, which suggests to me the guitar was rarely played.  Was this guitar owned by one of the luthiers at Gibson Guitars?  I don't know.  If anyone out there has the expertise to help me out here I'd appreciate your input.

[Soloshifter]

 

Here's my Imgur link.  

https://imgur.com/a/MGIG5Er

[E-minor7]

The nut is nuts, but what a stunning guitar.

Can't say anything wise about this oldie, but sure hope it sounds good.  The case is worth noticing too. 

In all respect : I wish you had taken better photos.

Look forward to read what the Super-Jumbo-people have to offer.  One already hear them trumpeting. 

[E-minor7]

P.S. - isn't the p-guard normal, meaning one of those without the side-line.  Where and how does it differ !?

[Soloshifter]

As you know, the pickguard changed in 1955 to one without the border, but they also used a different material to make them.  I'm wondering if this is the earlier celluloid material.  The yellow gold color is very faint but not faded.  The design is usually darker.  I will add more pictures.  You can see from these new pictures what great condition that it's in.  It has no cracks and only a couple of small scratches in the finish on the back of the guitar.  It's hard to see but I managed to photograph them.

I even have the original key that unlocks the case.

https://imgur.com/a/0rkBNOZ

 

 

[E-minor7]

G o r g e o u s

[slimt]

That is a 60s guard I just sold a NOS one exactly like that.  And the nut well it looks to have been changed. As for the bell cover hole  they missed things in the production line back then too.  

nice J 200 though   .  I dont think its a prototype   . It would be stamped on the neck block   Im guessing 

[Soloshifter]

It looks like a 1960's guard, however the color of the design is much brighter then the one I have.  I've never seen one of these 60's guards up close.  Do these 60's guards have light indentations in the guard where the round dots are?  Mine does and I'm just trying to compare.

The body being in near mint condition, it's hard to believe that the owner needed to change the pickguard.  That's why I think it may be original to 1952.

[slimt]

26 minutes ago, Soloshifter said:

It looks like a 1960's guard, however the color of the design is much brighter then the one I have.  I've never seen one of these 60's guards up close.  Do these 60's guards have light indentations in the guard where the round dots are?  Mine does and I'm just trying to compare.

The body being in near mint condition, it's hard to believe that the owner needed to change the pickguard.  That's why I think it may be original to 1952.

I can see the outline from the other guard placement.  And chances are it shrunk and curled up    Or just lost its adhesive Ive had those 200s that have had that. 

[slimt]

I may add another thing it looks like carpet two way tape was used. You cannot see the rings under the guard   . especially with a transparent red 60s guard .  You still got a nice guitar though. Easy to change out the guard , clean up the nut   . 

[Soloshifter]

You are probably right.  You are more of an expert then I am.  I can only compare to what I see on the internet.  From what you are saying, you have handled many of these guitars in the past.

I read that the guards that were used up until 1954 were engraved celluloid and then in 1955 onward Gibsons changed that to a cheaper material.  That's why I asked you whether or not the 1960's guards had slight indentations where the dots are.  Or are they flat?

You are most likely right, however if my guitar's guard were made of celluloid then it would be pre 1955 and therefore a prototype of the 1955 issue.

If the guard is not celluloid then your conclusions are absolutely right.

[slimt]

48 minutes ago, Soloshifter said:

You are probably right.  You are more of an expert then I am.  I can only compare to what I see on the internet.  From what you are saying, you have handled many of these guitars in the past.

I read that the guards that were used up until 1954 were engraved celluloid and then in 1955 onward Gibsons changed that to a cheaper material.  That's why I asked you whether or not the 1960's guards had slight indentations where the dots are.  Or are they flat?

You are most likely right, however if my guitar's guard were made of celluloid then it would be pre 1955 and therefore a prototype of the 1955 issue.

If the guard is not celluloid then your conclusions are absolutely right.

All those guards are Celluloid . Those 60s guards are thick. The 50s guards are thinner.  I own a few J200s from the 30s late 40s and 50s.  Most of those flower guards were also pressed . I have a couple from the late 30s and early 50s with darker carved guards the others are darker 50s guards.  Im far from a expert.  I just see what youve shown and compared to what I own here.  

[62burst]

"Your bottom screw hole is covered by your massive nut" 

What? It's possible that the nut was so large that the bottom of the truss rod cover would no longer fit- there, in the excavation for the nut that looks like the original screw hole. . . the angle of the photo is slightly above being straight out from the headstock, as evidenced by the vanishing point of the  side of the nut for the lower strings. And the screw holes aren't always perfectly centered.

 

Hey Boyd- how 'bout those "eyes" around the E and B tuners? Maybe clip the string ends a little sooner, or maybe start a new headstock design fad.

[zombywoof]

As a rule of thumb, when it comes to Gibsons you need to take what the exerts on the internet say regarding specs with a grain of salt.  A good example is I have seen a 1958 J200 which has top of the line Kluson Sealfast tuners.  The kicker is Gibson apparently got these with the purchase of Epiphone as somebody did a bit of engraving to change the Epi Epsilon to a "G".  Brings to mid the first Epiphone Texans which were pretty much leftover Epi French Heel necks grafted onto J50 bodies.

As somebody else noted, I have seen 1950s J200s with two different styles of pickguards, one of which being the borderless reddish version.   While I have run across them on bursts, if I recall correctly they tend to have been  more common on natural top guitars.

[Soloshifter]

Thank you "62burst" for showing one of my pictures.  I'm new here and wasn't sure how to do it.  But I don't think that the nut is that wide that it cuts out the lower screw for the truss rod cover.  I didn't put that nut there and know nothing about how it got that way.  I don't see why a normal guitar owner would want to do that.  That's one of the reasons I thought that one of luthiers at Gibson might have been using this guitar to experiment with how the guitar would sound like with a wider nut and thus eventually a wider neck.  But I guess there might be that some crazy (nut) guitar owner out there who wanted a wider and longer nut on his guitar.

 

Now, to address the pickguard.  I've now just noticed another major difference in the design of my pickguard to those of the Mid 50's and 60's.  My pickguard is a brighter red with thin, yellow gold lines in the flower design.  If you closely to the 60's pickguards, the painted bright yellow lines of the flower design are much thicker.  Therefore I conclude that the pickguard on my SJ-200 is not a 60's replacement.  It is probably a prototype.

 

To address "slimt", I would say, that if he is not a Gibson expert, then  he must be pretty rich to own three early SJ-200's, one being from the 1930's.  But it is not a correct observation to say that you can see the markings of where the old pickguard was  from the pictures.  What appears to be the placement of a previous pickguard is simply a bit o glue that had oozed out from the bottom when it was glued and a bit of dust as this guitar needs a cleaning.  Also, I don't think that there was a previous pickguard that had curled.  If this guitar had been improperly cared for, then perhaps, but the guitar is in near mint condition.  If the wood has never cracked then I don't think that the pickguard would have curled either.

[Soloshifter]

That Gibson changed the material for the pickguard in 1955.  I got this information from the following site, under the heading of pickguards.  http://guitarhq.com/gibson.html

"Prior to 1955, the J-200 has an engraved celluloid pickguard. Starting in 1955, this changed to an injection molded styrene pickguard that was cheaper to make."

[zombywoof]

Gibson was going through some growing pains in the early 1950s having just gone through a retooling and reorganization.  With regard to specs guitars were losing the tapered headstock and most models the stiffened fabric side supports.  But it is not like they changed the specs at the stroke of midnight in any given year.  Sometimes older specs hung on for up to a few years.  I had a 1956 J160E in the house which still had a solid top which supposedly did a disappearing act after the first year of issue.   I once got my hands on a 1955 J45 which although not having the scalloped bracing still had the teardrop pickguard.  Just part of the fun of owning Gibsons.

Anyway here is a couple I found on the internet - a '52 natural top.

Here is a '54 Burst.

Edited August 23, 2019 by zombywoof

[slimt]

3 hours ago, Soloshifter said:

Thank you "62burst" for showing one of my pictures.  I'm new here and wasn't sure how to do it.  But I don't think that the nut is that wide that it cuts out the lower screw for the truss rod cover.  I didn't put that nut there and know nothing about how it got that way.  I don't see why a normal guitar owner would want to do that.  That's one of the reasons I thought that one of luthiers at Gibson might have been using this guitar to experiment with how the guitar would sound like with a wider nut and thus eventually a wider neck.  But I guess there might be that some crazy (nut) guitar owner out there who wanted a wider and longer nut on his guitar.

 

Now, to address the pickguard.  I've now just noticed another major difference in the design of my pickguard to those of the Mid 50's and 60's.  My pickguard is a brighter red with thin, yellow gold lines in the flower design.  If you closely to the 60's pickguards, the painted bright yellow lines of the flower design are much thicker.  Therefore I conclude that the pickguard on my SJ-200 is not a 60's replacement.  It is probably a prototype.

 

To address "slimt", I would say, that if he is not a Gibson expert, then  he must be pretty rich to own three early SJ-200's, one being from the 1930's.  But it is not a correct observation to say that you can see the markings of where the old pickguard was  from the pictures.  What appears to be the placement of a previous pickguard is simply a bit o glue that had oozed out from the bottom when it was glued and a bit of dust as this guitar needs a cleaning.  Also, I don't think that there was a previous pickguard that had curled.  If this guitar had been improperly cared for, then perhaps, but the guitar is in near mint condition.  If the wood has never cracked then I don't think that the pickguard would have curled either.

 

You will figure it out.  

Ive usually had to get opinions  and acurate info from Gruhns or Elderly . They have had many pass through there stores   .  

[Soloshifter]

Thanks slimt, That's probably what I'll have to do - contact Gruhns for an apprasal.

 

Thanks for the pictures zombywoof.  You can see that those pickguards are a darker red then the one I have and the paint strokes on the flower design are much thicker.

[zombywoof]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 4:31 PM, Soloshifter said:

That Gibson changed the material for the pickguard in 1955.  I got this information from the following site, under the heading of pickguards.  http://guitarhq.com/gibson.html

"Prior to 1955, the J-200 has an engraved celluloid pickguard. Starting in 1955, this changed to an injection molded styrene pickguard that was cheaper to make."

 

 On the other hand,   the Fabulous Flattop book notes in 1955 the J200 pickguard was changed to a more transparent  swirled celluloid with no engraved border.   In general though while Gibson changed pickguard styles across the board in 1955   they continued to make them out of  .05" celluloid  into the early 1960s.   My 1961 B45-12 has a thin celluloid pickguard.  Even the early Hummingbirds had celluloid pickguards so it was not an issue of Gibson going to a molded  plastic  engraved scratchplates early on.     But unless yours and the guitars in the photo all had their pickguards replaced, it appears that  Gibson was  using both border and borderless  pickguards  on the J200 well before 1955.  The question is what were they made of - molded plastic or celluloid.

[SirNed]

Looks like a pressed guard to me. The coloring, rounded edges, and offset of one of the dots leads me to that conclusion.

[Soloshifter]

Thanks zombywolf  for your imput.  I got my info about the change in pickgaurd from an expert who stated it, but then another expert says something else.  You are most likely correct, that the pickguards were all made of celluloid throughout the 50's and 60's and you are probably also correct that Gibson produced the borderless picguards all the way back in 1952.  My pickguard could be one of those.  However, when I compare my pickguard to others of that time period it looks different - thinner brush strokes on the flower design.  Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I don't think so.  Take a close look at it.  What do you think?

[Soloshifter]

[Soloshifter]

Notice the leaf that is pointing downward.  The two lines don't touch, but in the picture that you supplied me of the 1954 pickguard the lines touch.  Notice also that there is cut out celluloid pieces where the round dots are.  I'm not sure, but I don't think this is present on the other pickguards.

I don't want to change things to this guitar (pickguard, nut), if this is original.

[zombywoof]

I think you are making too much of this.  The engraving and painting of the pickguard were not done by a CNC machine but by hand and will lack a certain precision.  So some variations would not be uncommon. 

While I agree on keeping the pickguard original, the nut, bridge pins and saddle are a different ballgame.  I own one Gibson 20 years older than yours and another 10 years older and I would not hesitate to change out any of these things if  they no longer  were able to do what I needed them to.  And that includes tuners.