Advice for tuners for 1934 L-00

[Pilchard]

It's time I thought about tuners for my lovely old pal.

I bought it in London in the winter of 1966 for £10 from a black guy called Hendrix. Unfortunately not Jimi... this one must have been in his 60's and had worked in dance bands on transatlantic liners.

The tuners wore out and I replaced them with some well-used ones salvaged from an SG. But 5 or so years later they also died and I put some Shaller tuners on it... M6 or whatever the equivalent was in the 70's. They still work perfectly, and because this guitar is so rock solid and never suffers wide or rapid changes in temperature or humidity, it just stays in tune. So technically... for playing reasons... there is no good reason to change them. But, but, but,... aesthetically, they are not right for it. It should really have some suitable modern vintage/repro tuners.... shouldn't it?????  

For it's age this guitar is pristine. It has never been restored... other than had the original deep sunburst varnish on the front very sympathetically wiped over Mr Hendrix's plectrum scratches. It has no splits, bends, warps, no worn frets, no varnish cracks at bridge or neck joint, no bellying at bridge, no loose or buzzing struts. Action is where it should be with no fret buzz. Tone is bright and crisp, yet also mellow across the range with surprisingly good base end. It's just the tuners that are non-original type.

So... what should I do? Keep the Shaller tuners and have a guitar that stays in tune, or fit some Kluson, Grover or whatever new yet vintage replacement is most aesthetically correct and find out too late that maybe they are nowhere near as good.

 

[jedzep]

Take your pick. I've had 'em both ways, some good, some not. You'll pay a few hundred bucks for period correct machines that look right on the instrument, and if that fulfills a need for restoration mojo, and you can get them stable as tuners and keep the value up, you're all set. If you can afford to keep a modern period correct set around, as well, keep both at hand.

I have virtually the same guitar, and that's how I handle it. Happy to put you in touch with vintage parts guys if you'd like.

Edited January 3, 2021 by jedzep

[cunningham26]

I've got the golden age tuners from stewmac on my L48 and they look the part and are better than the modern tuners on my new guitars. Mine were relic nickel with white buttons that i had to put a little shoe polish on to age them a bit- looks like they've got enough calls that they now offer a cream color button.

[Dave F]

2 hours ago, cunningham26 said:

I've got the golden age tuners from stewmac on my L48 and they look the part and are better than the modern tuners on my new guitars. Mine were relic nickel with white buttons that i had to put a little shoe polish on to age them a bit- looks like they've got enough calls that they now offer a cream color button.

I've put the golden age tuners on a few of my vintage guitars and pitched the original in the case for the next owner to deal with. I've sold a few guitars and stated original tuners included and seems to satisfy most buyers. I've never had to modify the guitars.

[jedzep]

Your pic is fuzzy, but it would be hard for me to enjoy my L00 if it had such oversized clunky looking buttons. If I could afford to part with some money to replace them, I wouldn't care too awful much if they were vintage-ly accurate, as long as those buttons went bye-bye and were replaced with ovals that mimicked the shape and size of what the guitar originally came with.

[Pilchard]

Thanks for the responses.

Jedzep... Are those $200 "period correct" machines you refer to genuine original stock, or modern repro/facsimile? $200 seems rather a large amount of dosh to fork out for just modern look-alike tuners, so I'm assuming they are tuners that have sat in a dusty box on a shelf for 85 years. Maybe they really are new... but the dog's gonads... indistinguishable from the originals, but far superior functionally. If they really ARE the best in terms of both vintage restoration-grade aesthetics AND function, then $200 plus dollars is OK. 

I was recently posing these questions to a guy that makes Fylde Guitars, here in the UK... possibly the finest acoustics made in the UK. It was him that advised me to keep the Shallers, but that's probably because his thing is constructing new rather than restoring vintage. He advised me... if I really insisted on changing machine-heads... to look at the Stewmac online catalogue. I found these....... $57.80 for the "Relic" nickel with cream knobs. There'll be a little shipping cost to the UK, but no big deal. 

Now I've seen some other favourable mentions of the "Relic" tuners, I'mm less nervous to try them.

The big question is though... is the 15:1 ratio a significant improvement on the originals? The current Shallers are 18:1 and may even be a self-locking type. Do the "Relic" tuners hold their tune well? Nothing seems to budge the Shallers.

https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-hardware/tuning-machines/solid-peghead-guitar-tuning-machines/golden-age-restoration-tuners-for-solid-peghead-guitar-with-scallop-end.html

I can't even remember what the original machine heads looked like... it was that long ago... almost 50 years. Maybe someone could tell me. But I have a feeling... looking at the faint but still discernible outlines in the varnish on the back of the headstock that they may have been pretty close to those Stewmac "Restoration" tuners in the link.

 

[Pilchard]

17 hours ago, cunningham26 said:

I've got the golden age tuners from stewmac on my L48 and they look the part and are better than the modern tuners on my new guitars. Mine were relic nickel with white buttons that i had to put a little shoe polish on to age them a bit- looks like they've got enough calls that they now offer a cream color button.

I also found those tuners online at Stewmac and am thinking of buying the Relic Nickel cream knobs. No tuning issues then? Rock solid?

[jedzep]

StewMac renditions are fine, with the same backplate footprint. I was referring to original equip Klusons. Here's a pic of my minty 30's Klusons...pretty alright, but hard to turn. Double down on checking the bushing diameters. That's the tricky part on the StewMacs.

Edited January 4, 2021 by jedzep

[Pilchard]

13 hours ago, jedzep said:

Your pic is fuzzy, but it would be hard for me to enjoy my L00 if it had such oversized clunky looking buttons. If I could afford to part with some money to replace them, I wouldn't care too awful much if they were vintage-ly accurate, as long as those buttons went bye-bye and were replaced with ovals that mimicked the shape and size of what the guitar originally came with.

Yes, it's a crap photo.... I resized it too small.

After approx 50 years of use, I'm used to those clunky looking buttons... but they look even worse from the back.

But as pretty as these guitars are... and as much of an anally retentive  purist I can be when it comes to keeping things original.... 95% of my pleasure of ownership comes from playing the thing, and that it plays in tune every time I pick it up.

A way out of this dilemma might be to try them out first on another guitar. I have an old Parlour size F-hole Framus I picked up in an auction for £8 a few years back. I was going to Convert it to a DIY Resonator, but when I strung it up to try it out I just fell in love with this cheap happy little rubbish guitar and didn't have the heart to chop it up. It is perfect for taking out on camping trips etc because if it gets sat on or stolen, it wouldn't break my heart. The tuners are appalling though.... crap ratio and go out of tune very easy. The spindle spacings are exactly the same as the Golden Age tuners, so.... I could try them on that first, and if they function well swap them over to the L-00 and donate the Shallers to the rubbish guitar. 

The main thing for me is good functionality. Looks and originality are important, but less so if you are re-tuning every 5 minutes. 

[jedzep]

Understood. I've always been satisfied with the Stewmac repros, just the warning about post hole size, which I think they address on the site to help you match to your hole and post diameter.

[Pilchard]

29 minutes ago, jedzep said:

StewMac renditions are fine, with the same backplate footprint. I was referring to original equip Klusons. Here's a pic of my minty 30's Klusons...pretty alright, but hard to turn. Double down on checking the bushing diameters. That's the tricky part on the StewMacs.

Ah.... thanks for the photo. So they are the Klusons. Original ones too. Hard to turn.... I suspect that isn't because of wear or age, but just because that's how they are... and probably why mine wore out. That dance-band guitarist I bought mine off must have given them a real hammering. As enticing as the idea is of having OEM tuners back on, I'm not sure I could cope with the downsides. In fact the Klusons look as if they have a similar ratio to the rubbish tuners on my little Framus f-hole, and they drive me nuts. These L-00's were cheap guitars by Gibson standards... selling for as little as $25 dollars new so I hear... so it would have made no sense to equip them with de-lux tuners. Fortunately though, it would have been the same timber, workshops and workforce that built the guitars, and it seem they didn't know how to make a bad guitar.

[Dave F]

9 hours ago, jedzep said:

StewMac renditions are fine, with the same backplate footprint. I was referring to original equip Klusons. Here's a pic of my minty 30's Klusons...pretty alright, but hard to turn. Double down on checking the bushing diameters. That's the tricky part on the StewMacs.

That's a nice looking set. I've seen different styles on the early to mid 30's. Here's the ones Gibson put on my '32 L00 RI

 

Here's some similar vintage ones from my Kluson stash.

 

 

[Pilchard]

11 hours ago, Dave F said:

That's a nice looking set. I've seen different styles on the early to mid 30's. Here's the ones Gibson put on my '32 L00 RI

 

Here's some similar vintage ones from my Kluson stash.

 

 

Jesus Dave.... you have your own little Kluson scrap-yard!

So how do you rate those Stewmac Golden Age tuners for ease of use, turning ratio, and ability to hold tension.... compared to original Klusons?

[Dave F]

10 hours ago, Pilchard said:

Jesus Dave.... you have your own little Kluson scrap-yard!

So how do you rate those Stewmac Golden Age tuners for ease of use, turning ratio, and ability to hold tension.... compared to original Klusons?

10x better

Kluson makes some nice closed back retro tuners that looks good on the late 40’s and the 50’s vintage guitars (I have some of them) but I have not seen any open gear three on a plate 30’s-40’s style. They may be out there.   I recently sold an old set of tuners to the owner of US Kluson (WD Music). Maybe I’ll drop him a line to see if they make them. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Dave F

[Pilchard]

2 hours ago, Dave F said:

10x better

Kluson makes some nice closed back retro tuners that looks good on the late 40’s and the 50’s vintage guitars (I have some of them) but I have not seen any open gear three on a plate 30’s-40’s style. There may be out there.   I recently sold an old set of tuners to the owner of US Kluson (WD Music). Maybe I’ll drop him a line to see if they make them. 

Well it would certainly do no harm Dave. But were these early L-00's ever supplied with closed tuners? The best date I can put on my guitar is 1934, with neck stock stamped FON number 1325 and rack number 52 pencilled in red beneath the stamp... and nothing I have seen so far would suggest it might ever have been fitted with anything other than 3-in-a-row tuners. I wish I could remember what tuners it had on when I made the first replacement with the salvaged closed fantail SG tuners (a few years before the Shallers), but I was smoking some pretty good stuff in those days. My thing is to get it to as close to original as possible without compromising ease of achieving and retaining tuning.

 Dating these guitars seems to be  a nightmare. I just stumbled on this book advertised online... see it's blurb below... is it worth the outlay? £40 is cheap if it delivers what it promises, but expensive if it's just guff.

Centerstream presents Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941, a detailed look at the inner workings of the famous musical instrument manufacturer of Kalamazoo, Michigan before World War II. For the first time, Gibson fans can learn about the employees who built the instruments, exactly where the raw materials came from, the identity of parts vendors, and how the production was carried out.

The book explains Gibson's pre-World War II factory order number and serial number systems, and corrects longstanding chronological errors. Previously unknown information about every aspect of the operation is covered in-depth. Noted historian Joe Spann gathered firsthand info from pre-war employees, and had access to major Gibson document collections around the world.

Long time Gibson experts, as well as casual collectors, will find this volume an indispensable addition to their reference shelf.

 

[Dave F]

Unless you're  really into that kind of data , most of this info can be found on the internet. I have the book. Good for looking up FON numbers. Has a lot early factory information such as employees, stores that they shipped to, artist who endorsed the models. Not a lot of pictures, not much guitar details.

Here's some pictures of 1934 L00 I grabbed from the web.

Pretty clear consensus -  square plate with slightly rounded corner/ brass gears (were probably nickel plated at one time/ brass pan head slotted screws holding to headstock/ straight tabs at plate cutouts (cannot see if maybe the tabs are bent up from the plate) /white buttons or maybe both. Made by Waverly.

 

Stewmac Golden Age

 

Vintage 1934 Gibson L-00 acoustic guitar

 

Folkway

A particularly good looking vintage Gibson, this one is completely original but for newer Stewart MacDonald reproduction tuning machines.

From Picker's Supply

Retrofret, tuners look wrong. Must have been an export with that neck stamp.

Guitar Gallery

Elderly's

Gary's Classic Guitars

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Dave F

[Dave F]

Here's some I found on  EBay. These look real good, need buttons swapped. Asking $185 USD

Here's a real nice looking set for $125 USD but they're for a slotted head. I've taken these and swapped the stems and they work fine.  I can make new stems if I don't have a set.

This set also shows me that the tabs are bent up and are part of the plate.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Dave F

[cunningham26]

Great post Dave, wonderful info!

[Pilchard]

Well Dave, I agree with cunningham26. As they say here in Cumbria... you've done me proud.

A detail you highlight in one of your photos is the MADE IN THE U.S.A stamp. That is the same stamp I have on the back of my headstock... se photo. Does that indicate it was an export model? 

I took the photo in the first instance to see what kind of makings had been left on the back of the headstock by both the original tuners and the closed SG tuners that were on for a 3 or so years. Impressions in the varnish of the scalloped top and bottom ends of those SG tuners can clearly be seen, although no clear indication remains as to whether the original tuners were square ended or scallop ended (like the Stewmac Golden Age tuners) but there are signs left of where the original mounting screws for the three-in-line tuners were.

Is it at all possible that the original tuners were closed rather than open? My faded memory banks are kind-of nudging me to them having been closed.

[Dave F]

I’m no expert but from what I’ve seen the closed tuners on a plate didn’t appear until mid to late 40’s and we’re really popular in the 50’s.
That  stamp was put on instruments Gibson was shipping out from the US. I don’t think the Kluson with dog ears showed up until about ‘35-‘36. The particular ones on Jedzep’s showed up in 1940 and only ran for a few years. 

[Pilchard]

I'm beginning to get the impression that, with the wide variety of tuners Gibson used in the 30's... some of which may have been of only modest quality, especially on guitars that are reputed to have retailed for $25 (I even once heard it was $10 mail order), and with tuners suffering early wear/replacement... so long as current replacements LOOK fairly contemporaneous, it matters less whether the replacements are exact originals or replicas and a lot more about how they function. No-one is going to hate an attractive, sweet playing, and good sounding early 30's L-00 just because it may have had it's tuners replaced in the 40's, even with closed Klusons. All down to personal preference.

It could also be the case, as this seems to be an export model, that Gibson may have had the same ethos regarding its exports as many others at that time... and some still do... that only the best quality is exported and often equipped with upgraded accessories. Who knows.... detail lost in the mists of Gibson company history I guess.