1907 Gibson L-1

[mattL1]

I recently found this 1907 Gibson. I have looked on the earlygibson site and found no patent info just some Factory Order number and Serial number info. This guitar's number is 5507 which I believe dates it just into 1907. In 1906 and 1907, I read that Gibson made some slotted headstock guitars without "The Gibson" logo at the top of the headstock and from some other early Gibson info I saw many pics of the fixed ebony bridges for the L1 guitars made prior to 1908. Still trying to locate patent info and any info on the fixed ebony bridge if it's even out there. I contacted Gibson and they don't have either.  Another question: Any ideas on how to get the soundboard looking any better than it currently looks without taking it to a luthier? Thanks!

[zombywoof]

While I am a bit hazy on it all these days, what I recall is that Gibson L Series guitars built up though 1908 sported fixed pin bridges.  After that they went with that wacky celluloid pin tailpiece which is what adorns my 1920 L3.  I have also seen slotted headstocks on guitars built up to again 1908 but do not have a clue if it was a universal feature or not. So, the build date you have come up with seems accurate.  As to patent numbers, my L3 shows them on the tailpiece, the single bracket holding the pickguard and even the pickguard itself.  I had to remove the pickguard though as it was off gassing to the point it was corroding the strings and any metal part in close proximity to it.

These guitars are pretty much an acquired taste.  Gibson marketed them as a perfect accompaniment instrument but I find them just what the doctor ordered for playing blues, rags or backing a fiddle tune.   And that pre-truss rod Louisville Slugger soft V carve neck and more than generous nut and string spacing at the bridge put them smack into my comfort zone.  Mine (which I found living 20 minutes down the road) also came with its original Geib hardshell case which I still use to house it.  

Edited June 6 by zombywoof

[mattL1]

That's awesome that you found it just 20 mins down the road and included the Geib HSC! My guitar unfortunately does not show any patent numbers anywhere on it. I was glad to just be able to see the build number on the label. I'll try Google patent section to try to find something for it. Its got to be somewhere hopefully. On the positive side, I have located a luthier 3 hrs away in Michigan who is highly skilled and said he can replicate/fabricate an ebony fixed bridge for it. I just want to do as much as I can myself before dumping a bunch of money into this piece if it isn't worth it. What are your thoughts on the soundboard as far as getting it looking better? Another member said to try not to mess with the patina too much and while I agree, I'd like to get it looking better that it does currently if possible. Thanks!

[slimt]

Cool piece.   There should be. Factory order number on the neck block. 
 

where you located at?

[PrairieDog]

Hey Matt!  Good to see you over here in the main ballroom 👋 Whatever you decide to do is going to be worth it. These are great special pieces.  If you have a general fine instrument restorer in your area, they should be able to give you a consult on the finish and an idea of what could be done, and what pitfalls you might be facing.  

Edited June 6 by PrairieDog

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, mattL1 said:

That's awesome that you found it just 20 mins down the road and included the Geib HSC! My guitar unfortunately does not show any patent numbers anywhere on it. I was glad to just be able to see the build number on the label. I'll try Google patent section to try to find something for it. Its got to be somewhere hopefully. On the positive side, I have located a luthier 3 hrs away in Michigan who is highly skilled and said he can replicate/fabricate an ebony fixed bridge for it. I just want to do as much as I can myself before dumping a bunch of money into this piece if it isn't worth it. What are your thoughts on the soundboard as far as getting it looking better? Another member said to try not to mess with the patina too much and while I agree, I'd like to get it looking better that it does currently if possible. Thanks!

The patent date on the tailpiece on my guitar is July 19, 1910.  That on the backet holding the pickguard is July 4, 1911.  I cannot read the date on the pickguard itself because it has deteriorated to the point where I can no longer make it out. I seem to recall a 1904 date though.  Somewhere I have a photo but do not have a clue where I stored it. 

As far as the top finish I would let it be.  Prior to around 1933/34 Gibson applied hand rubbed finishes.  We have not seen any Gibson sporting that finish since then.

I keep going back to that slothead though.  Considering how rare they seem to be I wonder if it was not a special order. 

 

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, slimt said:

Cool piece.   There should be. Factory order number on the neck block. 
 

where you located at?

That was the case with flattops but not necessarily archtops.  The FON on my 1920 L3, as example, appears only on the label. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Wow. That top is insane.

[slimt]

5 hours ago, zombywoof said:

The patent date on the tailpiece on my guitar is July 19, 1910.  That on the backet holding the pickguard is July 4, 1911.  I cannot read the date on the pickguard itself because it has deteriorated to the point where I can no longer make it out. I seem to recall a 1904 date though.  Somewhere I have a photo but do not have a clue where I stored it. 

As far as the top finish I would let it be.  Prior to around 1933/34 Gibson applied hand rubbed finishes.  We have not seen any Gibson sporting that finish since then.

I keep going back to that slothead though.  Considering how rare they seem to be I wonder if it was not a special order. 

 

I found a couple L1 archtops of that era with slotted pegheads dating to 1906   
 

 

[slimt]

Look under the top inside with a mirror. You might find more info 

[mattL1]

I’m located near Cleveland Ohio. There is no FON on the neck block inside. Never seen a hand rubbed finish on any soundboard. Do you think this looks good? Definitely unique but I find it a bit bizarre,  no?

[slimt]

4 minutes ago, mattL1 said:

I’m located near Cleveland Ohio. There is no FON on the neck block inside. Never seen a hand rubbed finish on any soundboard. Do you think this looks good? Definitely unique but I find it a bit bizarre,  no?

Ive owned a couple style R harp guitars with that finish. Its a pretty unique look.  
 

a good luthier could make a ebony bridge for that.  
 
 

Edited June 7 by slimt

[PrairieDog]

9 hours ago, mattL1 said:

I’m located near Cleveland Ohio. There is no FON on the neck block inside. Never seen a hand rubbed finish on any soundboard. Do you think this looks good? Definitely unique but I find it a bit bizarre,  no?

I’m not a luthier, but I do have a lot of experience with materials conservation and finishes.  The back looks pretty good, but the top, something is going on.  At least some of it could be 100 years of grime, or it could be under the finish, and harder to deal with.  

A good gentle guitar polish, like Martin or Gibson, should not hurt, and may improve the look quite a bit. Several rounds of light work with the polish sprayed on a very soft cloth, moving frequently to a fresh bit as the dirt transfers could help.  Test in a very small area on the treble side panel first to make sure you aren’t affecting or lifting the finish.  then a very small area on the top as that finish could be more damaged and fragile. 

Thick ground in dirt is cleanable, but it takes huge patience as you can’t let anything soak into the micro checking or the finish will cloud or lift off.  If it’s just grime on top of the finish you should be able to very gently with a finger nail see if you can move any of the discoloration.  I have used scalpels to carefully “lift”, not scrape, thick grime off objects after doing a dance where you soften the grime enough, but leave the finish underneath hard. It takes a very steady hand and patience.  And with micro-checking, you can run the risk of pulling up finish with the grime if the dirt isn’t softened sufficiently or you got the finish underneath softened. 

You can’t rush any of it.  Depending on what you do for a living it may be worth it to pay the luthier for their hours instead of spending yours, chuckle.  

However, From the photo, I think it looks like several other things could be going on:

Somebody could have used the wrong type of cleaner that reacted inconsistently with the original finish.  Sun striking the top would cause a stronger reaction than the back.    

It may have sat in a wet area?  Then the discoloration could be tannins in the wood leached out,  or even old, dead/inert mold. If it smells musty,  keep it wrapped up until you can have it treated.   The spores can/will spread to other things.   

Or, it could be smoke damage.  This could account for the back and top being different.  The back is usually laying tighter against the floor of the case, and the top can have a gap in the old loose cases that allows the smoke to hit the top. Smoke is also oily, so that brings another concern to how the top will perform. 

All of these situations have more complicated solutions that may require mitigating and refinishing.  

In the end, the finish is just going to be cosmetic. If the top has a nice resonant thump when you tap it, the board itself is probably okay and not oil soaked.  

Of course it will be only be easier to deal with before the bridge is placed, but unless it’s something oily in the wood that is deadening the top, or it is infested with mold, it’s not critical to deal with the looks, it would be just about how it makes you feel looking at it.  

You have several good sounding luthiers in your area.  Acoustic Guitar forum has a post about them.  If it were me, I’d take it to one that specializes in antique instruments for a diagnosis before tackling anything with the finish.  

Edited June 7 by PrairieDog

[zombywoof]

10 hours ago, mattL1 said:

I’m located near Cleveland Ohio. There is no FON on the neck block inside. Never seen a hand rubbed finish on any soundboard. Do you think this looks good? Definitely unique but I find it a bit bizarre,  no?

Whoa. I am only about an hour away from you.  With regard to repairs I assume you are talking about Lays or Burning River in Akron.  But as I said, Gibson did not start fully shooting spray finishes until after 1932,  I own a '32 12 fret L1 which sports a transitional finish meaning the burst was applied by hand with a final clear coat sprayed over it although there are only remnants of that sprayed coat left.  The finish has a real chameleon thing going on as it looks totally different depending on what kind of light you are viewing it under.

[zombywoof]

10 hours ago, slimt said:

I found a couple L1 archtops of that era with slotted pegheads dating to 1906   
 

 

The only one I have personal knowledge of dates to 1905. 

[cayine]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:13 PM, zombywoof said:

While I am a bit hazy on it all these days, what I recall is that Gibson L Series guitars built up though 1908 sported fixed pin bridges.  After that they went with that wacky celluloid pin tailpiece which is what adorns my 1920 L3.  I have also seen slotted headstocks on guitars built up to again 1908 but do not have a clue if it was a universal feature or not. So, the build date you have come up with seems accurate.  As to patent numbers, my L3 shows them on the tailpiece, the single bracket holding the pickguard and even the pickguard itself.  I had to remove the pickguard though as it was off gassing to the point it was corroding the strings and any metal part in close proximity to it.

These guitars are pretty much an acquired taste.  Gibson marketed them as a perfect accompaniment instrument but I find them just what the doctor ordered for playing blues, rags or backing a fiddle tune.   And that pre-truss rod Louisville Slugger soft V carve neck and more than generous nut and string spacing at the bridge put them smack into my comfort zone.  Mine (which I found living 20 minutes down the road) also came with its original Geib hardshell case which I still use to house it.  

namescastle.com

Hello. What strings would you suggest I use for an early 1900s Gibson L-1 archtop? I use Martin SP Custom Lights for my modern small body guitars. I *think* those might be OK, but I think maybe I could/should use even lighter ones on my new vintage guitar. Thoughts?

[PrairieDog]

24 minutes ago, cayine said:

Hello. What strings would you suggest I use for an early 1900s Gibson L-1 archtop? I use Martin SP Custom Lights for my modern small body guitars. I *think* those might be OK, but I think maybe I could/should use even lighter ones on my new vintage guitar. Thoughts?

The luthier at the shop mine was at put on Ddarrio PB 12s or 11s.  So you should be fine with the custom light Martins.  And did I miss your NGD? Love to see it!

Edited June 10 by PrairieDog

[zombywoof]

5 hours ago, cayine said:

Hello. What strings would you suggest I use for an early 1900s Gibson L-1 archtop? I use Martin SP Custom Lights for my modern small body guitars. I *think* those might be OK, but I think maybe I could/should use even lighter ones on my new vintage guitar. Thoughts?

I think I have 12-53 D'Addario NB strings on my 1920 L3 at the moment.  I tend to prefer Newtone Master Class 12-52 but have to remember to order them. But mind you while my guitar lacks a truss rod it sports a pin tailpiece and floating bridge rather than a fixed pin bridge.    

The only guitar in the house where I intentionally keep the gauge light is my '32 12 fret L1.  But that sucker clocks in at around 3 pounds with a bridge plate no thicker than a couple of business cards.  On this one I go with Newtone Heritage 11s or a similar gauge low tension Optimus or GHS thin core.  

Edited June 10 by zombywoof

[Silversurfer]

Wow. That thing is older than my 1918 L-1. Only things I can offer is that the serial number on my guitar was written in pencil on the label in the sound hole. It’s faded over the years and you can barely make it out. As far as finish, I believe back then the finish was a French polish applied by hand.

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, Silversurfer said:

Wow. That thing is older than my 1918 L-1. Only things I can offer is that the serial number on my guitar was written in pencil on the label in the sound hole. It’s faded over the years and you can barely make it out. As far as finish, I believe back then the finish was a French polish applied by hand.

Gibson finishes were fully hand rubbed through 1931.  The following year they started going with a transitional finish which while hand applied sported a final sprayed coat. Through the decades though this coat tended to flake off leaving only occasional specks of it. By around 1934 Gibson started going with a fully sprayed finish. In the end it was pretty much a cost thing.

The easiest way to eyeball a hand rubbed finish is the checking and crazing.  While the older guitars display their fair share of it, it ends to be so spider web fine that it is only noticeable when you are right on top of the instrument.  I own guitars slathered with all three of these finishes.  My favorite though remains that on my 1932 L1.  Not sure if it was the application or the aging but it is very chameleon-like.  When viewed from afar the black of the burst predominates.   But when viewed under a direct light you can see the various layers that were built up giving the guitar a tiger stripe-like look. Very different though that the reddish/mahogany burst my 1920 L3 sports.  What makes that guitar stand out in the looks department for me though is the herringbone rosette. 

Edited June 17 by zombywoof