Wow... An Explanation For Liberal Thinking

[The Holy Hand Grenade]

Some folks never give up beating that old dead slavery horse. Is this Al Sharpton on line? Being Georgia born and bred' date=' I don't sit around and cry about the war of Northern Aggression, it's the past. What I am concerned about is the future of my nation as a whole.[/quote']

 

Hell no lets talk about the past and how you guys stole our land, We want it back.

[bluzhammer]

 

Hell no lets talk about the past and how you guys stole our land' date=' We want it back.[/quote'] LOL , Come and get it, I don't recognize it anymore.

[pippy]

Hi Pippy...

 

Actually your caveats are where the devil is in the details.

 

You wrote' date=' "I would, however, have added a rider at the end of the above quote to whit the 'freedom of speech' is not used invidiously and with the sole intention of stirring up mass feelings of racism, xenophobia, homophobia etc...etc...and I'm sure you feel the same way."

 

Actually, I don't feel the same way.

 

Courts in the UK, for example, have been used to file lawsuits won under law in that nation against American authors living in the U.S. and publishing in the US. Why? Because they were critical of Sharia law and concerns that it doesn't make a cultural "fit" with the legal and governmental traditions of most Anglophone nations.

 

The problem we always will have is interpretation of what is "racism?" What especially is "xenophobia?" Were, for example, the Scots xenophobic about the English or vice versa prior to the Skye Boat Song? <grin>

 

Is it xenophobia if the French insist on the French language being the only official language in their nation, or English in England? Are the Irish xenophobic about the English? Or vice versa?

 

Worse, who determines what's "racist?" Who determines what's "homophobic?"

 

Granted, we have seen over the centuries a split in our two nations' concepts of libel in the particulars of case law; yet in both nations it's illegal to holler out "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

 

Where is the line drawn in terms of freedom of speech and maintenance of our history?

 

We've already virtually lost some of our musical history thanks to behind-the-scenes political correctness. Try finding a copy, as I've noted before, of "We're going to have to slap that dirty little Jap" that was quite popular in the U.S. after Pearl Harbor. Is that xenophobic or of historical interest to musicologists and music historians and sociologists and historians in general.

 

What indeed of "art" that places a crucifix upside down in a jar of urine? Or diatribes against Roman Catholicism?

 

Do we really want to steal our own history, burn our own books and smash CDs because somebody has determined they're somehow racist, xenophobic or homophobic?

 

Who will determine what is objectionable on those grounds and what is acceptable? You? Me? Will we always agree?

 

I very seriously consider this "freedom of speech" issue one of great importance to all of us.

 

What think you of the Rap lines that proclaim one should slap the "hoes" if they mouth off? Or "off the pigs?" I find both terribly objectionable and yet I find more objectionable the censor who would make them illegal.

 

Whatever... [/quote']

 

 

 

Hi milod.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

I agree; as you say - the Devil is in the detail.

 

Taking the points you raised in order;

 

Legal moves on religious matters in other countries; I agree wholeheartedly. For instance; since February 1989 a Fatwa has been in place concerning the author Salman Rushdie for the publication of his work 'The Satanic Verses' in which he dared to write about aspects of Islam in a way considered, especially by certain powerful Muslims, blasphemous. This is a perfect example of behaviour which is, to me, totally unacceptable.

 

Whilst xenophobia is defined merely as "A fear of things foreign", a Xenophobe has the added distinction of also

"...hating...". Having paid a visit to Scotland recently I can state that, sadly, yes; hatred of the English still exists for a number of Scots. Asked about the 'Skye Boat song' I suspect most will not even understand the religious background of events leading up to the 'Fifteen and the 'Forty-Five. It was - and still is - seen as an excuse for some English-bashing and that's good enough for them. This trait, incidentally, is on the increase. To counter the mawkish sentimentality of the "S-B-S"might I suggest you track down **** Gaughan's excellent renditions of either "Such a parcel o' rogues in a nation" or "No Gods and precious few heroes"?

 

Although English is, quite rightly, the main language in use throughout the UK there are many other 'official' languages such as Welsh, Erse, Gaelic etc. These were extant before the Saxons came over. Almost all governmental publications are available in dozens of languages. At my 4 year-old daughter's primary school the pupils, between them, share no fewer than 28 native languages. Tolerance and understanding of other cultures is a central tenet of their education. This is a very good thing.

 

My French wife agrees that the French are far more racist than they realise.

 

As to who can define terminology; the inescapable problem of who can define; who can appoint; and who can be the Arbiter of such words and difficulties will exist as long as there shall be 'Law'. I certainly don't want the job.

 

Some see confrontation in "art" to be it's sole raison d'etre. Why? Why not? Read more. Look more. Listen more. Think more. Make up one's own mind.

 

I certainly don't condone exorcising history in order to make everything look 'comfortable'. The destruction of books, music and culture just because they don't fit in with our current notions of what is 'Right' and what is 'Wrong' is vandalism in the truest sense of the word and is strenuously to be deplored. Denying what has happened does not alter the fact that it did happen. In some cases, most clearly seen in the case of Germany after Hitler, it is neccessary to adopt precisely the opposite attitude in order for all nations to learn from the mistakes made.

 

Censorship on the grounds of "I don't like that" or "I don't agree with that" is unacceptable.

 

I also agree that freedom of speech is one of the most fundamental requirements for civilisation to exist. However; In the UK in recent times there have been cases where anti-'black'; and anti-'brown' sentiment has been whipped-up to the point where lives have been taken. This is an example of where 'freedom of speech' is totally unacceptable and indefensible. In the USA you outlawed the KKK for behaving in a similar manner. The right of Freedom of speech should not be the defence cited as a treaty to commit murder.

[tulsaslim]

If you think Geo. W. Bush did a good job and left the country in terrific shape than there's absolutely no point even trying to reach you. Your plan failed, whether you'll admit it or not, and the American people rejected your way of thinking. If you believe bashing Obama is somehow going to make you 'right' than I feel sorry for you. The guy has a long, long way to go before he's fubarred things as bad as Bush did. Get over it.

[Hoyt]

Some folks never give up beating that old dead slavery horse. Is this Al Sharpton on line? Being Georgia born and bred' date=' I don't sit around and cry about the war of Northern Aggression, it's the past. What I am concerned about is the future of my nation as a whole.[/quote']

 

The point is, my friend, the old slave states (and those that got ticked because their right to discriminate was limited by the Civil Rights Act and similar laws) are the solid block backing so-called Conservatives nowadays (ie, the "red" states on election nights). And, even that support is eroding.

 

 

"Is" you Lester Maddox, on-line?

[Duende]

I'd have to agree with Roger, mind you I would wouldn't I? I am English

 

I think our freedom is exemplified best in our humour...

 

Having been to the states numerous times and comparing the US and England, my personal feeling is I think there is something in us (a dark ironic sense of humour perhaps) that doesn't take our country too seriously. I think comedy wise we are a taking the piss nation, LOL, ala Basil Faulty, Black Adder Frank Skinner etc. Dark and ironic!!

 

(edited US comparison as non relevant)

 

I feel modern England is very balanced. Sometimes we are too balanced and do let other cultures inject too much into our country. Personally if I moved to Spain I would learn Spanish and want to have beers with the natives..not search for sad fish and chips bar with a Union Jack flag. This is just me. I would say though working for 10 years in a range of schools from inner city poor schools to private, racism is very, very rare.

 

So I would say yes it is a free country and I know it is perplexing to many but the socialist aspects of our country work. Would they work on a bigger scale and much newer country with not as much history..who knows.

 

Matt

[Duende]

ps

 

This is meant in good humour but another lovely similarity between England and the US is loads of people hate us. LOL

 

Matt

[milod]

Hi Brit guys!

 

Yes, the US actually does have far more freedom of speech than found in the UK. The lawsuits taken out in the UK against American authors, especially several opinion/analysis/histories of Sharia was, in fact, an hours-long set of material on what is called "Cspan," a public nonpartisan set of television channels that has "Book TV" each week withe interviews of authors, etc.

 

That is chilling.

 

My understanding also is that it is illegal to put a photo of a handgun on the cover of a magazine.

 

OTOH, Brit Humor is quite fun in its self deprecation and one can say all the nasty things one wishes about the Royals but don't for heaven's sake, publish anything nasty that might even be considered critical of Islam.

 

The concept of "hate speech" has some fine lines in law, and as far as I'm concerned, in the realities beyond the law.

 

It's very hard to draw the line between encouragement of violence and making the statement that all governmental documents be in English (or French or whatever the traditional national language(s)).

 

I agree that one should learn the language of the nation in which one swims. My Korean is totally inadequate, but just in working there over a few weeks a year for five years I can read it well enough for transliteration, can order a meal and give my signature in the language.

 

And I can read - albeit haltingly and incompletely - most of the western European languages. Were I to move to France, I guarantee I'd be speaking French in at least a functional mode within six months and technically that's difficult for an old man. After living some number of years very closely with the Korean community in the US, I think moving there would be both easy and yet in language terms, difficult.

 

I know I'd never be at loss for buddies to drink and jam with. <grin>

 

So why do some folks refuse to do so when they live and receive the benefits of the nation in which they reside? I find that indefensible. There's a difference between believing that and hating "immigrants" especially as you've had in the UK, immigration from former Brit possessions of people who already speak the language and know the legal system and simply look different.

 

It's those who refuse to be "british" but have lived in London two generations that I object to. An Aussie friend makes the same comment about Brits in Oz who constantly tell the Aussies how they should be more British. Usually that comes, apparently, when they fail to understand the "wild colonial boy" inherent in Oz. But whatever.

 

As for Anglophone nations... I've a personal opinion that a number of factors, cultural, political in the broadest sense and even "musical" should help hold us together in ways that the diddling about with European union cannot change even in a few more generations.

 

Everyone has a degree of "culturalism" if you will, however. There are subgroups in both of our nations and throughout the world that I find personally objectionable. That has nothing to do with race whatsoever, but deep-held beliefs antithetical to what most western Europeans hold dear.

 

Our difficulty in an increasingly shrinking world is to determine what cultural behaviors are not to be countenanced - such as blowing up people - and how to react to such behavior in a long-term practical way. Frankly I strongly question that anyone today is even close to an answer if, indeed, such an answer exists.

 

Music... Music... music... Music is something of a universal language that may have an interesting role in helping cultures find a degree of commonality, however small.

 

That's why I think even "politics" in a "guitar company forum" has some value. Music is something that can bring us together unless used intentionally to divide us.

 

OTOH again... Sorry, but I do think there are some subgroups and/or cultures that are so blinded to any sort of toleration of others that they simply cannot assimilate. In that situation I think we've great difficulties ahead.

 

BTW, the grandfather of my first wife was an ex Brit sgt. maj. They don't give out that rank frivolously. His daughters both ended up marrying guys who live in the US and so he and his wive moved here too. My former mother in law insisted one Christmas insisted on handing out trinkets proclaiming, "I'm British and I'm proud." The old Sgt. Maj. looked at her and in his Manchester accent spoke gently, "Oh come on, M..., we're all Ameddicans now."

 

<grin> I thought the world of that old man.

 

Oh, and as to the similarity between the UK and the US - and I'd add generally all anglophone nations - is that it's a bit more difficult for the haters foreign or domestic to destroy our common heritage.

 

Old Winnie hit the nail on the head in the concept of the English speaking peoples being a "people" regardless of many differences among us. And that ain't skin color.

[milod]

Hi again Brits and Aussies...

 

Hey, I'll still stick with my statement about more censorship in the UK. You just aren't likely to notice it unless you're in certain types of endeavors - even as some "international" friends of mine have discovered some nasty little unexpected quirks in "the system" in the U.S.

 

(Hmmmmm. Is it "conservative" or "liberal to loathe red tape?")

 

Anyway... No the KKK is not illegal in the U.S. Some activities such folk might engage in are illegal.

 

Roger - It's super your daughter speaks Swedish as well as English. I lived very much "in" the Korean-American community for some years and always encouraged parents to teach their children that language, and children to learn it as well. I think it helped that I'd tease them that I use the Korean alphabet to write myself "secret messages." <grin>

 

And seriously, I think too few of us, even in such forums as this, realize just how much we Anglophones have in common regardless of our specific national perspectives. There are certain basics in culture that too often are lost in a "socialist vs. conservative" argument that sometimes seem to me more like sibling battles than anything else.

 

In fact, the first U.S. Civil War - that of the 1770s - was in many ways approaching inevitability because of shared values but different perspectives. Yup, that's a huge oversimplification, but I'll let it stand. Ditto the "civil rights" movements in the U.S. at various times. Interpretations vary from national perspectives caused perhaps more by geographical location and "local" resources, and by variations of individual training, but the foundation is so damned similar, after all.

 

Music, guitars... Even our music especially in Anglophone countries, moves much more easily thanks to that foundation of shared culture, even more perhaps than language. I don't have to worry, for example, that I might offend you personally because of some quirk of body language as one finds with some cultures. For all that, ditto someone from my part of the US in Germany or Scandinavia. That's not necessarily true when other cultures are encountered although - music and guitars oddly are wonderful tools to bridge huge cultural gaps.

 

So... whate'er. BTW also, Roger, I think you'll find that the American "cowboy" tradition of business with a handshake unfortunately ain't what it once was. But then I guess that degree of cynicism is not unusual for an old guy who's discovered that in something of a difficult way.

[TommyK]

Not another Ideological bashing thread.

 

 

By the looks of it he's trying to suppress that ever selling 'Smarter Than Thou' lobe back into place

 

Funny, I gotta send a copy to my sister.

[Duende]

Hi Milod

 

Not sure why you think of Britain like that. I can only politely beg to differ and move on.

 

A few years back like alot of places Political correctness stood tall. Gradually things have loosened again and I imagine will do more so.

 

No firearms on publications????

I have seen them on papers, magazines..evrything. Don't know why you think this.

 

As for Muslims, yes things were sensitive after the 9/11 tragedy but again I would say the majority of people aren't all angst ridden and tense about it now.

 

I am interested in theology and have criticsed the Koran to Muslims and other people and no problem?

 

Matt