ryanfender Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I was playing today and noticed something concerning a couple of the Kluson tuners on my 1990 J-200. It appears that the covers that go over the tuning gears are lifting off the body of the tuner a little. Even worse, the handle of the tuner has some play in it that allows me to push the handle upward toward the headstock (i.e. towards the wood). The handle is not loose or anything but it does move if I apply a little force. The tuning is stable and the tuners turn smoothly but it does not look right. It is common these tuners to do this or is these a sign of wear? Do I need to start looking for replacements? Hopefully the pictures help. KSdaddy, have you seen this before? Notice the closest two tuners in the picture. There is a gap between the cover and the tuner body. Also, notice how far the handle is from the body compared to the bottom one of the same side. Hopefully, this can be seen. See the gap between the cover and the body. I can push the handle down and push the cover into the correct position but it just pops back up when you turn the tuner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayville Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 That is a problem. The covers are held on with a small tab (as in "insert Tab A into Slot B") that is then bent over inside the base plate to secure the cover. It might be possible to fix if the tab is still there, and long enough and strong enough to bend back in place without breaking. You'll need to remove the string and take the tuner off to try. If the tab has broken off, is otherwise too short or breaks when you try to bend it back... you'll need a replacement tuner. One of the tuners on my CS-356 gave up the ghost like this and there wasn't enough tab to fix it -- it was too short. I was able to find a single tuner to replce it, but be aware that there are bass-side tuners and treble side tuners.... Hate to say it since I denied it myself when it happened to me (or at least I had zero recollection of having done it) but the most likely cause was knocking the tuner while casing the guitar. The tech I took mine to believes the tabs are "much shorter than they used to be" and somewhat more prone to coming loose like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J185-4Me Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I had the same problem with my '89 J-100, as it had the same tuners on it. (We meant to tell you this when you bought the guitar, but you were all like "It's so great" that we didn't want to spoil the fun by telling you "Well they SOUND great, but sometimes the tuners suck!".) That was a common problem with those tuners, and after it was discovered, Gibson moved to a different tuner. Similar looking but different. They had a more 'rounded' backside, as opposed to these, which had very sharp, squared-off stamped backs. I solved the problem by getting replacement tuners from a Gibson dealer. Then I sold the guitar to Brother Bob, who sold it to Wade, who changed the tuners out. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanfender Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Thanks Fred, You could have dope slapped me about the tuners. I would not have minded. It still a great guitar. Its ok, I don't particularly like gold tuners anyway even though I don't mind them on this guitar. I will think of it as a reason to upgrade. Stupid questions since I have never replaced tuners before. Assuming I replace them with tuners of the same size and matching holes, exchanging them should be a "tab A into hole B." In other words, is changing out all six tuners a job that I can do myself? Any recommendations on replacements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Sorry to hear of the problem, but it is reversible. Another set of the keystone button Klusons will button up in the same holes, but if you're going to upgrade might I suggest Grover Imperials. I put a set of these on my 200 early this year and I wouldn't use anything else on these big ol' barn-sized guitars. They are functionally excellent and the large, stairstep art deco buttons are perfect visually. Install does require enlarging the post hole and new bavkside screw holes.......not a job for the timid, but worth the wait if you take it to your repairman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I've got the same tuners on my 89 J200. I haven't had any problems with them but that's just the luck of the draw. Schaller used to make a very nice direct replacement but I don't even know if they make them anymore. Pricey but I really like Schallers. As to tightening up the tabs, I've never done it. On paper it makes perfect sense, it would just be a matter of how. It would be hard to squeeze the whole can without making a mark. It might be a matter of laying the tuner down on a towel on the workbench and then peening the tab with a small hammer and a soft drift of some sort, a piece of brass rod maybe? It would definitely be worth a shot, I don't think you'd do any harm at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanfender Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Thanks everyone for the advice. I am leaning towards the Grover Imperials and having them professionally installed. What has been everyones experience with the following tuners: Grover Imperials Gotoh Keystone Vintage (the cheapest at StewMac) New Klusons Wafflebacks with Keytsone Knob (strangely the most expensive at StewMac) If I am going to change them, I would like to chose wisely. I guess I could also contact Gibson for replacement but I am sure I can buy better tuners for the price that Gibson charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J185-4Me Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Whatever you do, get the gold tuners -- I think gold looks GREAT on a blonde like that! I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try calling Gibson up, in Montana, about it. I don't know that they could do anything of substance for you, but perhaps they might provide you some useful tuner-swapping advice. Call 1-800-426-2636, and ask to speak with LaVonne. I lucked out to find a dealer (Dave's, in LaCrosse) who happened to have an unused 'exact match' set on hand at the time, and were gracious enough to send them to me. Let us know how it turns out! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbg63 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I also had the same problem on my es-335 on the D&G tuners. Mine I'm sure was caused by casing the guitar had them replaced and had no problems since then. Go with the Gold by all means.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 i'm always a fan of waverlys, even on the giant SJ-200s Don't know if you bought your guitar new or not but if you did i bet you could get the tuners fixed/replaced under warranty if you wanted to. I've really liked the way that the keystone tuners looked but after owning a couple of guitars that have them i haven't found any that really feel that solid, and as evidenced by what's happened to yours it looks like i'm on to something. The imperials aren't super cheap and i'd bet a set of waverlys cost more. Think of it a one time purchase and get the ones you like the most. I had a set of chrome waverlys installed on my J45TV at Stringed Instrument Repair in SF and when i pulled them out of the case Gary's eyes lit up; he called them, "an investment in tuning." I've found that if properly strung and stretched i really don't have to tune my guitar hardly ever. That said, i don't think you can make a bad decision here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grOOved Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 That is one of the big complaints regarding kluson tuners. People often swap them out with a set of Grovers. Though they don't look as nice they hold in tune well and are very durable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanfender Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 i'm always a fan of waverlys' date=' even on the giant SJ-200s Don't know if you bought your guitar new or not but if you did i bet you could get the tuners fixed/replaced under warranty if you wanted to. I've really liked the way that the keystone tuners looked but after owning a couple of guitars that have them i haven't found any that really feel that solid, and as evidenced by what's happened to yours it looks like i'm on to something. The imperials aren't super cheap and i'd bet a set of waverlys cost more. Think of it a one time purchase and get the ones you like the most. I had a set of chrome waverlys installed on my J45TV at Stringed Instrument Repair in SF and when i pulled them out of the case Gary's eyes lit up; he called them, "an investment in tuning." I've found that if properly strung and stretched i really don't have to tune my guitar hardly ever. That said, i don't think you can make a bad decision here.[/quote'] Oh Waverlys. I may have to look into that. I don't know how they would look but I have always loved open back Waverlys. I will need to look for some pictures of Waverlys on a j-200. They might look weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I think the Klusons are just bad design. It looks like the worm gear is slipping up the post and pressing the back cover off. Most well designed tuners are fully sealed which keeps the worm gear from torquing up or they have a screw in the back of the post to hold the worm gear down - as in the open back style (Grovers, Waverly). A little piece of stamped white metal? Not going to hold it over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J185-4Me Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Oh Waverlys. I may have to look into that. I don't know how they would look but I have always loved open back Waverlys. I will need to look for some pictures of Waverlys on a j-200. They might look weird. I have a J-200Jr with gold Waverlys' date=' looks like this: [img']http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/shrimer/IMGP2006.jpg[/img] Closer view, from back: They're a very accurate tuner, but the shorter shaft means the uppermost tuners (D and G) are not quite as easy to tune because the headstock width on the J-200 headstock is a tad bigger than on other Gibsons. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponty Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I know its difficult to choose out of all the options...but hereis another! My 93 J-45s had the tuners and problems as yours. I swapped them out for Klusons made by tone pros, whick look identical to the Gibson deluxe. They are grat tuners, Tight, no wobble, and acurate. Gibson Deluxe, like the ones you have are still easily avaiable, but expesive - after all, they do say 'Gibson' on them. The tonePros are less expensive, and in my experience, better, have a look at their web site.http://www.toneproskluson.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 The prewar SJ-200 comes with waverly's (link) I think buc's got one but swapped out the tuners on his, he might be able to comment on the waverlys. My SJ-200s got the keystones on it. i've got half a mind to swap them out but i've been so many trials and tribulations with that guitar and it's now in 100% excellent perfect sounding and playing shape i think i'm going to stand down unless it becomes necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Yes, my 200 PWWC had gold Waverly "butterbean" machine heads originally, and they were a good set of tuners. Solid and accurate. The large headstock dwarfed the buttons and the top and bottom pairs were very close to the edge of the headstock making the use of a stringwinder a tricky proposition. Though likely the finest mechanical machine head on the market today, the small button Waverlys never looked right to me on the oversized headstock. I am very pleased with the Imperials in function and appearance. Though not so easy to see, the Imperials are on the guitar in my avatar photo. I still have the original Waverlys and they will never fit my guitar again (with the posts holes oversized now). If you think you might like the butterbeans I'll get off this set reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanfender Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 Buc, Sent you a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanfender Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 After some research last night and looking at lots of pictures. I am leaning towards the Waverlys. The Imperials are so heavy I am worried about upseting the balance of the guitar. For a J-200, this one is really light compared to others I have tried. I would hate to screw it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 After some research last night and looking at lots of pictures. I am leaning towards the Waverlys. The Imperials are so heavy I am worried about upseting the balance of the guitar. For a J-200' date=' this one is really light compared to others I have tried. I would hate to screw it up.[/quote'] That too was a concern of mine before I made the swap, and afterwards there is a difference in the headstock weight. But after a few days it became inconsequential and is not the "game changer" I thought it might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanfender Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Hey everyone, Thanks for the advice. After talking with Wade Hampton over on AGF, I decided to just replace the tuners with Gotoh (Kluson) replacements. I will not have to drill new holes (only conversion bushings). I wanted to keep the guitar period correct and I have always like the keystone knob look. I am happy with my choice. If I hate the Gotohs, I can always add something different later. I will have access to my tools on Nov. 24th after we close on our new house and the mover arrive. Hopefully, my existing tuners will hold together for a couple of more weeks until I can replace them. Thanks for all the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I know its difficult to choose out of all the options...but hereis another! My 93 J-45s had the tuners and problems as yours. I swapped them out for Klusons made by tone pros' date=' whick look identical to the Gibson deluxe. They are grat tuners, Tight, no wobble, and acurate. Gibson Deluxe, like the ones you have are still easily avaiable, but expesive - after all, they do say 'Gibson' on them. The tonePros are less expensive, and in my experience, better,have a look at their web site.http://www.toneproskluson.com/[/quote'] Not to get all fuss budgety, but aren't the shafts on those tuners a bit short? Shouldn't the tulips stick out a bit more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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