Help Installing Tune-o-Matic - on a Hollow Body ???

[bugbiteaudio]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have a Guild Starfire III-90 reissue (which is an es-135 wannabe). It is a really nice USA made guitar. Great craftsmanship.

I LOVE the sound and feel of this guitar. The only problem is the floating bridge...Can't stand it. It moves when I bend strings. The strings jump off the saddle. and restringing is a pain.

I wan't to change the whole bridge set up to that of an es-135. Tune-o-matic and tailpiece (not a big Bigsby fan either).

 

I can't seem to figure out If I need different tune-o-matic studs than the typical ones sold for solid bodies, or if there is something different that needs to be done for the drilling and mounting into a hollow body guitar.

 

Any tips, suggestions or instructions on this matter would be much appreciated. Thank you.

-Tony

[brundaddy]

Tony! Killer guitar!! What's the specific issue with the saddles? Before you drop a pile of cash for a luthier to 'peg the bridge' try this:

 

Trace a good pencil line around the base of your bridge so you can always find your way home.

 

Start with a piece of normal writing/printer paper. Trim it to size so it matches the base of the bridge, then place it underneath. The idea is to create enough friction to keep your bridge from walking out from under you. Try this first, then work to successively coarser textures.

 

If normal paper doesn't work & if you don't have any laying around, get an assortment pack of sandpaper from the dollar store (you know, extra fine, fine, med, coarse - it's important that there is a piece with a nice fine grit to start with). Fold a piece over so that the coarse side is on the outside/smooth inside. Trim to size, carefully fit it under the bridge, restring, go to town.

 

If the bridge keeps walking go coarser & coarser ... trust me, this method will make the bridge bite down just enough to hold fast.

 

**Naturally, you'll have to lower your bridge to compensate the intonation for your sandpaper shim.

 

As far as restringing goes, it's best to do it one string at a time - if you just can't deal with that, then you have your pencil line to tell you precisely where the bridge goes.

 

Personally I'm not a fan of pinning the bridge to the body. What if in 5 years you get a wild hair and decide to go with lighter or heavier gauge strings (or god forbid, flatwounds for jazz)? If the bridge is anchored you can't adjust for intonation.

 

Try this first. If your strings are still popping out of the saddles, make sure the grooves are deep enough. If you're still balls to the wall determined to use a Tuneomatic, get a bridge/baseplate set made for a 175 and use the method above to keep it from walking on you. Also, save any & all Guild hardware you replace in case you ever have to sell the guitar (sell it to me if you do).

 

If you can, post some pics of the bridge so we can see if there are any other issues to consider.

[bugbiteaudio]

Thank you for the advice!

I suppose you are right. I should definitely explore those options before drilling holes in this fine instrument. The 2 problems are the slipping of the entire bridge and the strings (mostly the g) pulling out of the saddle during bending. I will try the paper technique that you described to stop the bridge walking. I have included a couple up close shots of the saddles. Can I just file the slot for the "G" string a touch deeper? In the meantime, I am going to try to find a Guild tailpiece to switch with the Bigsby. I will definitely keep the Bigsby though, just in case. Here are the pics:

[milod]

Yup, tiz gorgeous...

 

I've put tunamatics - both real Gibson and a couple of "fakes" on a number of semis, but other than kinda a marker on the bottom part of the bridge (that contacts the guitar top), I found it just a "drop in swap" on the bridge. I had one that needed a bit of smoothing and I widened the string separation just a shade.

 

?????

 

I'm not a bigsby fan either but - there again, you can functionally disable the thing to do the least changing to the box as a whole.

 

Again, ??????

 

Never drilled a hole.

 

Also for bridge walking, I wonder if the aluminum (???) bridge is wiggly. Could just buffering it do what you need?

 

m

[AlanC]

Hi Bugbiteaudio, I actually have two archtops with floating bridges and I hated the fact that they moved whenever you changed the strings etc.

 

I had an expert luthier put two very, very fine posts on each side of the bottom of the bridge (not much bigger than a needle) and these hold the bridge in the same place. However whenever I change strings I put masking top over each side of the bridge to keep it in place and stable.

[brundaddy]

Try the paper/sandpaper thing first. It costs next to nothing and is 100% reversible. Don't drill any holes unless you have no other alternative.

 

Make sure you make a good pencil line around the bridge's base - and yes, I'd google "saddle slot filing" to determine what type of file works best. On this, just realize that if you do a clumsy job with a too-big/wrong tool the G string's saddle will look like the Grand Canyon.

 

Milod knows what he's talking about (as usual), you can rig the Bigsby so that it is a fixed tailpiece - BUT if you swap it for a conventional tailpiece & you need someone to take that Bigsby off your hands, let me know...

[milod]

Another one that hit me re-reading the thread...

 

When you re-string, do one string at a time. As I said, I've never had a problem that way.

 

Also, re-looking at the bridge, it looks as if it is not "solid" on the adjustment screws. The idea of shimming it came to mind again, too, so it wouldn't "teeter-totter" when string tension might change. I wonder if a little graphite might help there, as many do at the nut, too.

 

I've never used that type of metal bridge; I have a hunch there may be less of a problem with flatwounds on it, too, if you a "drop-in" tunamatic isn't possible and you decide to keep it.

 

m

[bugbiteaudio]

Thank you for all of this info. Excellent stuff.

 

-First of all, Yes, the saddle does wiggle on its posts. It is mostly noticeable if you use the tremolo.

-How would I go about shimming the empty space in the saddle slots? Tiny wood shims???

-Before I start filing the saddle, I will first try some graphite. That should help the binding but probably not the jumping out of the saddle on bends.

 

I am a blues/rock type player. Not too much Jazz. I love Jazz but I don't play it. This guitar sounds unreal (in no small part due to the pickups) but It is a little fuzzy and soft due to (I am assuming) the floating bridge. Would it be a massive sacrilege if in the end I decided to drill holes for bridge posts for a tune-o-matic?

 

I would hate to destroy the value of the guitar, but this is not an exceptionally valuable guitar (probably worth about a grand). It is more of a players guitar.

 

Any thoughts?

[milod]

Hi again...

 

It appears the problem is the aluminum bridge itself which, somehow thanks to wear, is not solid on the screws. The "teeter totter" appears to be the problem, nothing more.

 

My guess is that if you were to put the "top end" of about any other bridge you'd likely be fine. I'm guessing again, but I'll bet one would fit.

 

Or, mark with an erasable small magic marker where the bottom of the bridge goes, and replace both the top end and the screws with any replacement bridge.

 

Or - Yeah, perhaps "tiny wood shims" could do it, or take it apart and get a cupla little washers to use as shims - once the thing has been taken apart (Just get the strings reeally loose should be enough, then replace the whole unit under the strings) - you can tell what may need to be fixed to keep the top part from rocking back and forth. No bridge, IMHO, should do that.

 

Or... Replace the whole bridge unit. That should not be difficult, but the "marking" of position would have to be a bit different since any entire replacement would not be a replica of the aluminum you have now. "Mark" the two "e" strings, then put the entire replacement in roughly that position and give yourself room to mess with intonation. Then you've a bit of fun to get the intonation correctly set.

 

Honestly, I would not even consider drilling holes. Is this semi-hollow? Would you be certain the "block" would go where you wanna drill anyway?

 

It sounds to me that the problem is the aluminum that has gotten messed with too much, resulting in the "teeter totter" effect. Get that sorta thing resolved, either through a shim of some sort with the current bridge, or partial or full replacement bridge, and you should be out of the woods.

 

And as for it not being anything special - hell, I'd disagree violently. <grin>

 

m

[brundaddy]

Hell yeah Milo, he's got a hot mama on his hands doesn't he? That thing's a BEAST.

 

What I was trying to tell you above is that you can install a TOM bridge without drilling -- use one made for an ES 175. Look at the bridges in the thread where everybody posted pics of their 175's. Every last one of them has a floating bridge like yours. That's what you want right there. Go on Ebay, get a rosewood 175 base and a roller TOM bridge and you will be as happy as a rabbit with 2 carrots.

[milod]

Brun said it!!!

 

If you get frustrated before you get out that power drill, email me for my street address; I accept donations. <grin>

 

BTW, That's 99.5 percent teasing. You've got a keeper you'd regret messing up or letting it go regardless of cash. If it's too frustrating to get and install the 175 bridge and doing the setup, consider a sale or swap or whatever before you damage the thing. Seriously. And don't toss the original bridge, either.

 

m

[bugbiteaudio]

The body is completely hollow. No center block.

...OK....No drilling....

I will try to somehow shim the the excess space in the saddle post holes and add the paper under the bridge to prevent walking and see how that works. You are all correct, this guitar is pretty awesome. I'm sure I would end up regretting any modifications I attempted to make.

 

But you really do have to hear this thing to truly appreciate it. Maybe I will post a link to a sound demo.

 

Thank you all again for the expert input. I am off to work on it right now.....

[brundaddy]

Yeah keep the original hardware in the case so you never ever misplace it. Happy hunting...

[L5Larry]

I will try to somehow shim the the excess space in the saddle post holes

 

I had a similar problem fitting a Gotoh replacement bridge on Gibson TOM posts. What I did was put a layer of heat shrink tubing around the top threaded area where the bridge sits. Plumbers Teflon tape would also be an easy, readily available, and cheap remedy.

 

As for the bridge base, all archtop bridge bases are carved (or curved) to fit the particular instrument. No two hand carved tops are alike (I don't know if the Guild is carved or pressed). Parts houses like Stew-Mac sell an archtop replacement bridge base that has a "foot" on each end and a thin area between the feet which allows it to bend to fit the contour of any top. I have used these before and have been very happy with the results. I believe you can buy this part as a "unit" with a TOM or rosewood bridge provided. If you want the instrument to be playable, I would highly recommend just replacing the entire bridge/base assembly instead of any band-aid work on the existing one.

 

As for the floating bridge sliding around during bends, this is a function of a few things. One important thing is the string angle break over the bridge. This is what gives the downward tension on the floating bridge (and also your tone and sustain). With a Bigsby you want minimal break angle over the bridge to help with returning to tune, so this is a "catch 22".

 

Another thing that would affect the break angle is the neck-set. If the neck-set angle is too shallow (or has started to pull up due to neck joint fatigue or neck bow) the bridge has to be lowered to achieve playable action, therefore also decreasing string break angle (and downward tension) over the bridge. The other thing to consider is string guage. These guitars were never designed for light guage strings. As any guitar player knows, the difference in string tension between even 9's and 11's is a huge difference, and the string tension is all that keeps the bridge in place. I would also recommend never stringing this guitar with anything less than 11's, and the heaviest strings you can tolerate will sound better on any hollowbody guitar.

 

The design and construction of a hollowbody archtop is more similar to a violin than any other type of guitar (Flattop, solidbody, etc. The relationship between neck-set angle, bridge height, tailpiece height & type, and string guage (tension) are what make them sing (or not).

[bugbiteaudio]

I love the heat shrink idea. I will definitely try that first to keep the saddle from rocking on the bridge posts. I have some laying around that will fit.

The neck set is in excellent shape and has not bowed up at all but as you stated, since I am using a Bigsby, the string break angel is not very steep.

I am currently using 10s. The scale on this guitar is fairly short, and that combined with the tremolo make the strings feel looser than they are. So I think I could tolerate 11s on this guitar. I will give that a shot as well.

Again, excellent info. Thank you. I will post the progress.

-Tony

[GPFALLON1]

i restored an e335 boat paddle <see show us those 335s>mines the black 1 .i bought the bigsby and abr 1 bridge ,the abr rocks when you use the bigsby but goes back in place....however before you eff up your "swoon"ax ....the new bigsby i bought came with an identical bridge on a wood base i send it to you free ......gpfallon1@Jjuno.com else get the advice of a luthier else you may cause intonation probs

[bobv]

Along the lines of Larry's advice, I would see about getting your existing bridge to sit better on that top. If it were a wooden base, the proper installation technique is to put some sandpaper on the top and rub the base so that it takes the shape of the top. Aluminum can also be sanded. Hard to tell from the photo, but it appears as though the base doesn't sit flush to the top. This will affect your tone as well as the stability of the bridge.

 

It does not appear that there were any "notches" in that bridge, so I wouldn't go putting any in if the bridge isn't designed for it.

 

If you're going to replace anything, I'd try a roller bridge on a wooden base. Measure your string spacing high E to low E and see if there's a roller bridge available.

[milod]

L5Larry certainly knows archtops better than I do but ... I've had no problems whatsoever with 9-42 on any box with a floating bridge.

 

OTOH, I play almost entirely very gently with bare fingers and thumb.

 

m

[brundaddy]

Geez milo, who are these foxes you trick into being photographed next to you? (~wolf whistle~)

 

I have also played 9's, 10's, and 11's on my 175 over the years - and neither have I had any trouble or performance issues with lighter strings (the only 'good' or 'bad' factor for me was just a drifting preference on string gauge). The bridge didn't walk or anything else. I play with green Tortex picks, and often strum pretty damn hard when I play live.

[milod]

brun...

 

That's Hailey Steele.

 

See:

 

http://www.myspace.com/haileysteeleband

 

A little South Dakota girl who has a big voice and is in Nashville to make it big - we hope.

 

The pix is from Saturday night when she performed at the "sendoff" for area cowboys and cowgirl who are en route to the National Finals Rodeo in Las Vegas.

 

m

[bugbiteaudio]

OK good. I was really not looking forward to changing gauges. I will stick with the 10s.

 

Hailey Steele is very cute, but she looks like she is fifteen.... Is she any good?

[milod]

First, yeah, I think if you don't beat up those 10s and the bridge is set on correctly it shouldn't walk. As I said, I've used 9s on several different boxes without problems. On one old archtop now long gone I even did some pretty heavy rhythm flatpicking and had no problems with a medium-light pick.

 

Yeah, Hailey Steel's cute as a button.

 

She's 21. Check the myspace address in my earlier note.

 

The acoustics where she was playing Saturday night stink - and that's a gross understatement. There is so much room reverb it's hard to tell some stuff. Frankly I'd never wish to play there regardless of cash, it's that bad.

 

She's very smooth chording that big guitar, though, and has stage confidence as well. She's been performing since before she started school. The voice has very nice qualities and is on pitch. In that room, though, anything "gutsy" at all really reverbs far too much to tell much else.

 

Again, check her stuff on myspace to get a better idea.

 

She's also a typical Dakota hard worker.

 

("I love old corrals and sagebrush, California wine... pretty girls in pickup trucks, and Ponderosa pine..." ((Ian Tyson)))

 

m

[guitarpicker7]

Hi!

 

If you haven't got this worked out, may I suggest you buy an arch-top, tune-o-matic-style, roller bridge- eBay item, about $31 including shipping. It has a rosewood base, with posts and finger nuts to support the bridge assembly. The bridge saddles have rollers, which work nicely with the Bigsby. About the hardest part of installation is sanding the bottom of the wood base to fit the contour of your guitar- takes about 5 minutes (60 grit sandpaper, face up on the top of the guitar where the bridge will mount, rub the bottom of the new bridge evenly across the sandpaper until it matches- FYI- cover the sound holes and any openings with masking tape to keep out dust)

 

This is a Sig Il part- imported, nothing fancy. I used to make these units, for about 25 years, until I found the Sig Il. I've used these for 5 or 6 years and my customers have been very pleased. I have one my own Washburn OE40 jazz box.

 

Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/GOLD-Archtop-ROLLER-BRIDGE-ABR-1-Type-w-wood-base-L8_W0QQitemZ200427306001QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar_Accessories?hash=item2eaa65fc11

 

 

Rock on!

[bugbiteaudio]

I tried the heat shrink method and was able to get it on the posts nice and clean, but it made the width of the posts too thick to get the bridge holes over them. So I took the heat shrink off and used a bit of masking tape on each post. It helped the rocking a little bit, but not completely.

 

So as per your suggestion, I just bought one of those roller bridges with the rosewood base off of ebay (but I bought chrome instead of gold, to go with the rest of the hardware).

 

I'll let you know how it works out. Thanks again everyone.

 

-Tony

[loneguitar]

For the money and peace of mind have a luthier pin the bridge period.

I have a floating bar bridge on my Gretsch Country Gentleman and it was a pain until I followed Chet Atkins idea, he had all of the bridges pinned. I've never looked back.

BTW - nice looking axe y'all have there.