StarBucks - Now I'm a fan!

[FennRx]

I'm still waiting for Wisconsin to catch up to the rest and allow to carry protection.I don't want to ever have to use a gun on another' date='but I'd feel better knowing I'm protected the best I can be and I'd like to see the crime drop if that would happen due to allowing us to protect ourselves.[/quote']

 

do you mean CC? Wisconsin allows OC

[FennRx]

California is going the other way... soon they'll try to outlaw ALL firearms except for "non-Anglo social gangs" when used in the pursuit of their initiation rituals!

 

california and illinois are a joke. people like daley scream bloody murder about everyday citizens carrying weapons (or even owning them!) all the while surrounded by an entourage that is armed to the teeth.

 

like i said before, if CA actually would issue CCW permits to the non-rich/famous, these OC "incidents" would happen to much.

[milod]

Randy...

 

What people in some places don't admit is that just a question that there may be a firearm present is in itself something that can lessen the potential criminal home invasion or attack. I note also that since the law took a trend against the legality of boobytrapping one's business or home, burglary seems to have increased.

 

Drugs, and apparently for some people, booze, likely bring different perspectives, but a lotta thugs don't care to go up against a potential armed defender.

 

So if you "look" alert and capable, regardless of age, in a "must issue" concealed carry state, odds of being a victim are somewhat lessened. The anti folks, btw, appear to have dropped their argument that carry permits would bring a rash of gunfights among permit holders. In Florida, for example, carjacking incidents took a nosedive.

 

As for Cali... 30 years ago a lady friend told me that police told her just to go ahead and carry her .44 snubbie as long as she was well dressed and well-spoken. I doubt that the younger generations of officers would concur, and apparently would prefer picking up splatters of a victim rather than a perp. I dunno. I'm old, so take that last with a grain of salt.

 

Also, Neo isn't really being a bloodthirsty "nut" when he mentioned difficulty under stress to utilize fine motor skills against an attacker/attackers. The adrenalin rush gives literal tunnel vision, changes one's perception of time, increases strength to major muscle groups in the body, but gains that strength at the cost of fine motor skills such as one would require in any defense technique. In short <grin> in ways it's stage fright on steroids.

 

That latter is one argument in favor of various sorts of training in various sorts of defense tactics, etc.

 

m

[NeoConMan]

I would have thought the weapon of choice for in-home self defense would be the sawed off shotgun with an unhealthy dose of buck shot or is that just too messy.

Oh, God.

Messy doesn't begin to decribe it.

Blood is one thing, but tissue and clumps of who-knows-what everywhere is pretty tough to see.

And if you've never been indoors when a shotgun went off - it will change your life!

Even at an indoor gun range, it draws plenty of attention...

 

I shudder to think what the inside of my place would look like even after one shot.

All the smoke, dust from all the drywall, insulation everywhere, and anything else in the line of fire.

Might as well be a hand grenade going off in your house.

 

 

 

Milod is right on several points - the older well-dressed lady, same advice I've given many.

Sad but true, it's not just the gun, it's who's carrying it and under what circumstance.

I've told our 20 year old boy this repeatedly, he just doesn't want to believe me.

 

The "clack-clack" of racking the slide is a universal language.

EVERYBODY knows that sound.

 

And as far as sawed-off, too short is bad news.

18'' is the law at the federal level, might wanna stay 18.25" if you're doing the sawing.

There are plenty of off-the-shelf defense shotguns to choose from nowadays, no need to butcher one.

 

Slugs, #00, all that macho stuff is for living in the woods away from anybody else.

Buckshot no larger than #6 is the way to go if you're using it in the house, or anywhere near a house.

 

I can cite all sorts of studies with number of projectiles/size/mass/energy but I keep #6 in mine.

Lethal as anything else at indoor distances (25 feet?) and will not over-penetrate. Well, not as much....

 

At longer distances, the energy is spread out over wider area with a tactical barrel.

Think of it as basketball-sized group much beyond 30 feet.

You probably won't kill the guy, but he'll be easy to find - leaking profusely from many, many small wounds.

(Bird guns have chokes to focus the shot in a small area, so that's your distance gun.)

 

Also, #6 inside the house will probably blow a hole thru most wood/drywall/insulation but most of the

energy will be absorbed during the penetration - anything beyond that is likely not lethal, if it goes thru at all.

 

Same with the body you were aiming at, if you hit your target. It will diffuse most of the energy, and anything

beyond it will possibly require only a good deal of rinsing and then disinfecting with bleach.

[milod]

Neo is a bit blunt, but pretty much right on.

 

Another factor I guess one should consider is where one lives. The Neo-compound is one thing, an apartment for a young person in a city today is yet another. I remember living in fear my guitars would be stolen, and my only firearm was kept in my vehicle that was only marginally more resistant to a break-in than the apartment.

 

At night... a really sharp butcher knife in the dark is pretty awesome. A camera flash while you squeeze your own eyes shut can do interesting things to mr nasty and company, followed by a low line attack then letting any multiple opponent bunch play among themselves.

 

Tactics play a larger part than "weapons" per se. Anything is a weapon. Nothing is a weapon.

 

m

[Flight959]

Being a Police Officer, I love Starbucks.... They look after us!!

[dkennedy96]

i'm all for rights and stuff like that but do you really need to carry a 9mm pistol everywhere you go? that is seriously the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard: packing heat in a coffee shop. Are the barista's at Starbucks refusing to give them their coffee?

 

but if we outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns........

 

 

 

and then we will be screwed.

[milod]

I think the "open carry in Starbucks" was obviously a gimmick. About the only time I've done an "open carry" was when hunting or en route in a rush to a competition and my home and the competition were in a small, very "western" town.

 

Here's the deal, I may never carry a firearm, in fact, I may never own a firearm and may even detest and hate firearms and the people who own them.

 

But if the law in my state allows it, nobody can ever be sure that I'm not carrying a firearm, either on my person or in my vehicle. That gives the basic protection of arms even to the hoplophobe.

 

m

[dkennedy96]

guitars= chick magnet

guitar hero=guy magnet

gun everywhere you go=redneck

[milod]

You're definitely wrong on the "redneck" comment although there are those who find it comforting to place themselves in a category "above" those who might carry firearms and wish to consider themselves "better." That's insulting.

 

Other than police officers, the first folks I came across who tended to "carry" all the time couldn't have a "red neck" unless somebody skinned it. They were pro musicians, I'll add.

 

Then I ran into some "security" type folks who might be wearing about anything at all to blend into the background. Then there was a private detective or two.

 

And then there were the business folks who carried en route home, under a suit, and even after calling police for an escort to drop off cash at a bank.

 

A decision or "need" to carry isn't dependent on income or social class, but usually on circumstances.

 

To say "redneck" in the context you did, is to suggest that only uneducated, uncultured "white" folk would carry arms. That's insulting. It's also very, very incorrect and without support of facts.

 

The lady I mentioned before in this thread, for example, was a pro entertainer after getting her undergrad degree from a very famous and highly rated New England college. That career was followed with a master's in accounting and her CPA credits. She's quite well rounded in terms of formal education. She simply did not wish to be a victim because she's a well-dressed and successful looking female in an environment where there are too many predators.

 

There are many others, male and female, very much with the same perspective.

 

m

[Cruznolfart]

I admire your patience this late in the day, Milo.

[NeoConMan]

gun everywhere you go=redneck

dkennedy96=Victim.

You've already made the choice.

All you have to do now is meet your predator - game over.

 

 

And I mean this in the nicest possible way' date=' but...

If you're participating in a thread simply to question people's intelligence and cast aspersions,

at least take the time to type coherently, spell, punctuate, and capitalize as needed.

 

[biggrin']/

 

Love,

Neo

[milod]

Dennis....

 

Yeah, it's late. But I've far more important things to get hung up about this week. <grin>

 

m

[NeoConMan]

I think the "open carry in Starbucks" was obviously a gimmick.

Milod' date=' let's see if I understand this correctly.

 

From what I gather, there was an issue with these guys who decided to carry in the open at a Starbucks.

Not being an Ace on gun laws in every state, because I sell guns only in AZ, I don't know the whole story.

 

Somebody carries a gun openly (which I NEVER do, though I can legally) into a Starbucks.

Somebody like our friend dkennedy96 gets their panties in a bunch and tells the manager.

The manager finds out the guy is carrying legally, so he now faces a dilema.

Stand with the rights, the liberty, the privileges that our Constitution grants - or cave in to numbskulls.

 

From what I understand, customers on the numbskull side demanded Starbucks take care of the "problem."

 

Starbucks decided to err on the side of law-abiding citizens who actually gave some thought to their rights,

instead of being continually freaked out over the idea that somebody else has rights too....

 

 

Yeah, I think I got it now....

 

[milod]

Neo...

 

Perhaps my use of "gimmick" was a bit too much "professional jargon," but you kinda nailed it.

 

I can't believe that the guys carrying openly didn't know what was likely to happen. Given that they were entirely "legal" - or so we're led to believe - they were in a "win-win" situation making a point for firearm rights.

 

On the other hand, as you noted, very few folks other than those obviously carrying for professional reasons, do so on a regular sort of basis.

 

Most folks I know who have permits also carry very seldom. But a concealed carry permit in most places shows you have no criminal record and that your state has done a full federal check on you. That's better than a passport, IMHO, and I'm far more likely to have trust of someone who has such a permit than one who doesn't - strictly on that basis.

 

My major point remains: The fact that people can own and carry firearms is perhaps one of the biggest safety factors in states that recognize the citizen's theoretical right to self defense, but also the means to self defense.

 

Bad guys, unless they're on some other world from some sort of chemical or mental illness, recognize that certain types of crime are more dangerous, take notice and govern themselves accordingly.

 

m

[NeoConMan]

Bingo.

 

Yeah, I've stated repeatedly that being permitted for a couple decades now means little in the way

that many of the Chicken Littles fear - I rarely have a gun on my person.

 

In my truck - always.

When I'm riding my motorcycle in the desert, or up in the mountains, yes.

In my house, of course.

When I go flying, privately, there's one in my briefcase.

When I travel, there's one in my suitcase.

 

And NOBODY ever knows.

Even my wife asks me sometimes - "Did you bring a gun?" - because she didn't notice me getting one as we left.

 

I can't think the last time I wore a concealment holster.

On the rare instance I am carrying a gun on me, it's usually in my front pocket.

 

Though I'm a fervent believer in the right, I rarely actually "carry" a concealed weapon.

If I think I might need one - I leave.

 

 

Imagine that - a redneck with a pilot's license....

 

[cool]/

[FennRx]

i'm all for rights and stuff like that but do you really need to carry a 9mm pistol everywhere you go? that is seriously the most ridi****us thing i have ever heard: packing heat in a coffee shop. Are the barista's at Starbucks refusing to give them their coffee?

 

but if we outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns........

 

 

 

and then we will be screwed.

 

remember when that guy shot four cops in a coffee shop? too bad one of the patrons/employees wasnt packing. they might have stopped the guy from fleeing. maybe not. but at least there could have been a maybe.

[milod]

Neo...

 

Yeah, I've got an Azirona buddy who takes his walks in the desert with a 1911 clone.

 

I "carry" mostly when I'm traveling at night in the boonies, which nowadays is very seldom. In my 60+ years I've had my hand on a firearm twice for the potential of "self defense," and both times it was in the boonies with feral dog packs; both times I made my escape without having to fire. And that's after living and/or traveling in some nasty places.

 

The first time was in a semi-developed public camping area. My "city girl" first wife was and probably still is a very nice person, but wanted me to shoot while the critters were bouncing off and clawing at the side of the tent. I didn't, and luckily they didn't get in anyway. I want a certain target and don't care to spray lead promiscuously even if under threat. I'd not care to hurt anyone. I was very happy the critters left.

 

A lady friend got thinkin' of carrying after she discovered a verrrrrry big kitty had been stalking her on the ranch. I'd never tell, even if it were on her own property.

 

When I used to do a lotta solo hunting in the hills, I loaded up some special handgun rounds with a very slow-burning powder and put them into a 2" bb. revolver I carried. That's after I almost fell off a cliff. I figured if I fell and broke stuff and lost the noisemaking rifle, I was in trouble. The revolver would shoot an 8-10 foot plume of flame and was rather loud. It was my "hey, guys, I'm hurt and here I am" load. Luckily I never hadda use that one, either. BTW, just in case, it was 148 grain hollow based wadcutters loaded bass ackwards. <grin>

 

m

[NeoConMan]

Yep. That would do it!

 

I considered buying a flare gun at one point, just for kicks.

Never did.

[milod]

Neo...

 

When I was sailing and in the Coast Guard Auxiliary I had a cupla flare guns. Even on an inland "lake" upstream from a dam, you can get around the curve of the earth and a mast up there 30 foot or so doesn't necessarily work well enough for the radio.

 

Never hadda shoot one of 'em, either. They went with the boat many, many years ago.

 

m

[TommyK]

Wrong. Cattle are ruminant animals. Their natural diet is grasses' date=' not grain.

 

[/quote'] Um... their natural diet is vegetation. Given a chance, Cattle will of their own volition... no force required, eat grain until they bloat and die.

 

 

At the feed lots they have to force feed the calves grain (corn) to get them used to eating the stuff.

 

Sorry, but they ain't time to be shoving corn down any calf's gullet. They gobble it up plenty fast without coaxing.

And when you force an animal to eat something it normally does not, it Fs up the PH in their guts which is why they have to include antacids and other drugs in the corn.

 

antibiotics are added to keep the livestock healthy. Federal law requires the withdrawal of the antibiotics a specified number of days before slaughter to keep the antibiotics out of the processed meat you and I eat.

 

It also caused the bacterium in their intestines to blossom. This is why you have so many ecol i outbreaks with beef. Their dung is now very toxic.

Without bacteria in the digestive tract, livestock and humans would be in a sorry state. Bacteria is required for proper digestion and livestock and human health. I am fairly certain that my great grandpappy, who raised livestock before antibiotics were discovered, treated manure as if it were toxic. My grandmommy made sure of that, she kept a clean house. E.coli is present in all areas of life, in your food, your bed, your guitar, your stomach, your hands, your mouth. What causes E.coli to be a problem is when people, play fast and loose with proper food handling procedures which have been established since the early chapters of the Holy Bible. What it boils down to is if someone gets sick from food borne E.coli, someone... some human in the food delivery chain, allowed the food to become warm enough, long enough, to allow the E.coli bacteria, always present, to grow and produce a toxin. Or... some human in the food delivery chain did not practice good personal hygiene. For the record the food delivery chain does not end at the supermarket check-out.

Yes, the corn fattens them up real good and gives us consumers that fatty, marbled meat that someone thought was desirable, but you are going against thousands of years of evolution with this species. It's like forcing you to eat spiders, centipedes, scorpion stingers, and other venomous insects and then chasing it with anti-venom; all because it softens your meat for better eating.

Yup, grain fed beef is more palatable, and tender and more enjoyable to eat. That is why I eschew eating arachnids and their relatives

Hay is OK, though, since it is a grass. What else are the cattle going to eat in the winter time?

 

Exactly. Cattle and other ruminants, require less volume of total feed when grain is partially substituted for hay. I.E. it stretches they available hay. It also stretches the land to support more animals and humans.

 

Don't you just love it when cittiboys try to tell us'ns all they know about livestock?

[Jadecrow]

In California' date=' where it's legal to carry a gun openly without a license in most places as long as it's unloaded,...[/b']

 

What is the point of carrying a firearm if it's unloaded? Do you keep the clip in another pocket? Are hand guns the new fashion accessory?

 

 

 

LOL

[NeoConMan]

Guns don't kill people' date=' rednecks with guns kill people.[/quote']

How many thousands of people die every year because of the efforts of Mr. Magoo engineers?

 

I can count personally dozens of times I've seen direct and dire consequences of their "intelligence" and such.