Epi "Bolt On Neck" Acoustic?

[Digger]

G'day,

 

A mate of mine has a circa 1970's "bolt on neck" Epiphone acoustic.

 

Has anyone heard of such a thing? Any idea what it's worth approximately, and before you ask I'm sorry but I don't have pictures.

 

Thanks

 

Dig

[Guest]

G'day' date='

 

A mate of mine has a circa 1970's "bolt on neck" Epiphone acoustic.

 

Has anyone heard of such a thing? Any idea what it's worth approximately, and before you ask I'm sorry but I don't have pictures.

 

Thanks

 

Dig[/quote']

Starting in 1970 Epiphone ceased USA production and began to use the "Epiphone" brand name on a line of guitars made by Matsumoku in Japan starting in about 1971. Matsumoku also made "Aria" guitars and these early imports were actually re-labeled Aria models with some cosmetic changes to the headstock and had the bolt-on necks...these were models like the 6830..6832...6730...6732. A year or so later those model numbers changed to numbers with an "FT" alpha prefix and the line expanded to include other body styles and wood options...these were the models like FT-130..FT-145..FT-150. About 1973/74 they started offering models like the FT-330.. FT-335..FT-550...FT-565 and FT-570 which had an exterior heel but were still bolt-on neck guitars. How much they're worth? Ermmm...not very much though they do get put up on E Bay with ridiculous starting prices and once in a while someone does pay stupid money for them. They're all-laminated bodies and have structural defect issues and today you can buy a very viable guitar for much less than people usually want for these because they're under the impression that because they're thirty-some years old they're somehow desirable collectors items...not at all the case... Much better modern guitars available today for your money.

 

...and Al's your uncle.

[Johno]

They haven't appreciated in value as a collectible and there have been structural issues with stress cracks.

I have an all blonde 1978 FT145 M bolt on that I bought new and is now 30 years old.

It has a laminated spruce top, maple sides and birdseye maple back.

It's action was too high which may have led to future structural problems and stress fracturing at the neck and bridge but I took it to a guitar tech who lowered the strings and replaced the tuners and it never develped any structural problems. And it's took quite few hard-strumming-drunken-jam-session-beatings over the years.

I think it was $300 retail and $200 street in 1978. I paid $200 and that's about what it would be worth today.

It sounds better than most modern guitars today at three or four times the price.

[Digger]

Thanks Uncle Al & Johno,

 

Appreciate the information and will pass it onto my guitar teacher who owns the guitar.

 

Dig

[danno1281734007]

Ya know, I wouldn't give ya a dollar for a dodge neon, but they've sold the heck out of em. Case point? I own an Epiphone FT-160 made in 72' that looks next to new. I 've played alot of 12 string guitars since 72' and some costing 5 or 10 times as much, and I haven't found one yet that plays like this one. I was speaking with a very accomplished guitarist,(I will not drop names), and he said,"The bolt necks have taken a bad rap over the years, but when you get a good one it's a good one". I do however agree with the fact that these are not "investment pieces", but I wouldn't take anything for mine. By the way, my neighbor loves her neon. Go figure............................................................................................... Keep Pickin'

[Guest]

Ya know' date=' I wouldn't give ya a dollar for a dodge neon, but they've sold the heck out of em. Case point? I own an Epiphone FT-160 made in 72' that looks next to new. I 've played alot of 12 string guitars since 72' and some costing 5 or 10 times as much, and I haven't found one yet that plays like this one. I was speaking with a very accomplished guitarist,(I will not drop names), and he said,"The bolt necks have taken a bad rap over the years, but when you get a good one it's a good one". I do however agree with the fact that these are not "investment pieces", but I wouldn't take anything for mine. By the way, my neighbor loves her neon. Go figure............................................................................................... Keep Pickin' [/quote']

 

I also own a mid 70's FT-160... and I agree that it plays pretty well.

 

...and Al's your uncle.

[TommyK]

Everything above is mostly true. I have a FT145SB from that era, that I love to death. I've had to re-glue the neck joint and for some songs she is just the thing. Tone to die for. It's up to you whether you do the repair or not.. or have someone do it for you. If you hire it done, you'd better get the guit tar cheap or it should probably be an heirloom. A competent luthier, which I'm not, should be able to do it in a couple hours... excluse of glue drying time. I've posted, or shall I say re-posted, the repair from the old board today.

[boy.chutney]

just got my ft-150 back after having the neck fixed for the third time (in 32 years, but still ...). different repairers each time but they've glued and strengthened the neck this time. the rosette was looking very sick (as in ill) but they've done quite a good cosmetic job on that at least. i don't play it a lot these days but i do like the feel and tone, and, well ... we just go back a long way. i'm sticking to lighter strings (11s), pitching it down a tone and hoping it lasts.

[TommyK]

just got my ft-150 back after having the neck fixed for the third time (in 32 years, but still ...). different repairers each time but they've glued and strengthened the neck this time. the rosette was looking very sick (as in ill) but they've done quite a good cosmetic job on that at least. i don't play it a lot these days but i do like the feel and tone, and, well ... we just go back a long way. i'm sticking to lighter strings (11s), pitching it down a tone and hoping it lasts.

 

Sorry I didn't see this before now. Here is a new link to the old post I made. Prior links in previous threads point back to the stand-alone Epiphone forum. All links to threads within that forum are now broken. But the threads are still there

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php/topic/37812-repairing-a-norlin-era-ft-guitar-with-broken-neck/page__p__528620__hl__repairing__fromsearch__1#entry528620

 

Keep this for any subsequently needed repairs.

[bonsaibill]

I hope it's okay to add to this conversation coming in as late as I am. I just spent the last several hours working on the neck geometry (don't know a better way to say it-I'm not a luthier) on a beat up 6830E. It was unplayable when I bought it. I took off the neck, shimmed it, and put it back on (I glued it too). It plays great and sounds wonderful. It crackled like a bowl of Rice Krispies when I brought the strings up to pitch, but it has settled in to a sweet-sounding, easy-playing guitar. I buy 'em to play 'em, and man, I do love the old Epiphones.

 

ron

[kuvash]

Just adding to the mix if I may.Though not the pearl in the oyster,I have an FT140 Norlin M

[TommyK]

Crackled and popped?

 

If I were a betting man, I'd say you fixed the symptom, not the disease.

 

Sounds to me like you've got a loose neck block. Very common for this vintage of Epiphone. I implore you to de-tension the strings, then have it repaired, otherwise the damage will only get more severe. Here is my fix:

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/37812-repairing-a-norlin-era-ft-guitar-with-broken-neck/

 

 

The 6830E was definitely made in 1971. The model number is the same as an Aria model which was being made by Matsumoku of Japan when the move was made. "E" suffix, apparently, was added to differentiate it from the Aria model. The "E" was not always present. I hypothesize it was added late in the production run of the 6xxx model numbers before the Epiphones got their own model nomenclature beginning with FT, in late 1971 or 1972.

 

This thread discusses this era of Epiphone.

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/38468-need-info-on-a-epiphone-6732/

 

Finally, post pictures if you can. We like pictures here. Upload your pics to PhotoBucket, then post a link here.

[kuvash]

Sorry about that... I have an FT140 Norlin Made In Japan...purchased in a pawn shop ,they were asking 125 for it though I got it for considerably less.Mine has an adjustable bridge which was good as I wanted it for "slide"....it has very good tone and was in pretty fair shape except for some fret wear(they had been dressed previously) It had med. PB strings on it with an .010 for the high E when I purchased it.I use ghs RB1600 on it made for G tuning.As I said it sounds good.I did have to shim the neck bolt holes.I use open G tuning but it plays very well even in std. tuning.....not worth a fortune but a keeper for me anyway.The bolt on neck is great for slide as you can really get down in there on those high notes.Hope this helps some.

kuvash

[RaysEpiphone]

Yeah, both my Epiphone's have bolt on neck's, one is a Texan FT145SB and the other is a FT120. They where made in the 1970's, the 120 has a white label and the Texan has a blue label. The 120 may just be an early 1970's model, I'm not to sure thou. They both sound very good but are worn out and even if the 120 is still in great shape I don't know if ether are worth refurbing or not. I payed less that $200.00 (US) for each of them about a year ago. I got some good use out of them being as I was playing out regularly at that time, maybe a new set of tuning machines would make the 120 a nice guitar again but the Texan has been beat all to hell (was like that before I got it) so it's little more than a paper-weight now. And who ever had it (Texan) before me glued the neck-joint to the block with some strong *** glue so it won't ever come off again short of cutting or breaking it.

[bonsaibill]

Crackled and popped?

 

Yes! I was alarmed myself. I'll try to post pictures because it sounded as if the crackling was in the soundboard, which is already full of crackles. Thank you for the detailed instructions on the loose neck block. I will inspect it when I get home.

And thank you for the information on the 6830E!

regards,

ron

 

(somehow I just gave myself a -1)

[TommyK]

...And who ever had it (Texan) before me glued the neck-joint to the block with some strong *** glue so it won't ever come off again short of cutting or breaking it.

 

If you can, I'd like to see some pictures of the fix. I was reluctant to just glue it. Epoxy would probably be strong enough, but there was not, in my opinion, enough over lapping wood to make a strong joint. That is why I went with the bracket. According to Frank Ford at Frets.com, epoxy is flexible and tends to move with time. But if it worked for yours, then it's all good.

[Digger]

My goodness that's an old thread of mine! Never expected to see it resurrected like this but thanks for all the subsequent posters.

 

Makes me feel like I've been hanging around here too long as I was a member here before this incarnation and the one before that......I've got to get a life!

 

Dig

[bonsaibill]

Crackled and popped?

 

If I were a betting man, I'd say you fixed the symptom, not the disease.

 

Sounds to me like you've got a loose neck block. Very common for this vintage of Epiphone. I implore you to de-tension the strings, then have it repaired, otherwise the damage will only get more severe. Here is my fix:

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/37812-repairing-a-norlin-era-ft-guitar-with-broken-neck/

 

 

The 6830E was definitely made in 1971. The model number is the same as an Aria model which was being made by Matsumoku of Japan when the move was made. "E" suffix, apparently, was added to differentiate it from the Aria model. The "E" was not always present. I hypothesize it was added late in the production run of the 6xxx model numbers before the Epiphones got their own model nomenclature beginning with FT, in late 1971 or 1972.

 

This thread discusses this era of Epiphone.

 

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/38468-need-info-on-a-epiphone-6732/

 

Finally, post pictures if you can. We like pictures here. Upload your pics to PhotoBucket, then post a link here.

 

 

 

Thanks for the advice on the neck block. I inspected it and I think it's nice and tight. It doesn't move and there is no visible damage. Here are the photos of the guitar:

 

http://s174.photobucket.com/albums/w84/ronerin/Epi%206830/

 

All the best,

ron

[TommyK]

You're right I don't see any evidence that the neck block has moved. We usually see the fretboard extension bearing down on the rosette at the top of the sound hole, either deforming the wood here or splintering it. However, from here, I do see that there appears to be a gap between the neck and the neck block pocket, just above the top strap button. It does appear to have more of a gap on the treble side than the bass. The first view of the saddle end shows that, from where I sit, the fretboard extension is higher on the treble side than the base. This should be level.

 

I am now concerned that the neck screws are pulling out. If there is indeed a gap between the neck and neck block pocket, remove the strings, remove the neck, then force one or two tooth picks with wood glue into each of the four neck screw holes in the back of the neck. Then re-install the neck. Make sure the screws get into the correct holes and the neck is rock solid with no gaps. Re-string and make sure the neck doesn't move.

 

This is a truly beautiful instrument.

[bonsaibill]

I do see that there appears to be a gap between the neck and the neck block pocket, just above the top strap button. It does appear to have more of a gap on the treble side than the bass. The first view of the saddle end shows that, from where I sit, the fretboard extension is higher on the treble side than the base. This should be level.

 

I am now concerned that the neck screws are pulling out. If there is indeed a gap between the neck and neck block pocket, remove the strings, remove the neck, then force one or two tooth picks with wood glue into each of the four neck screw holes in the back of the neck. Then re-install the neck. Make sure the screws get into the correct holes and the neck is rock solid with no gaps. Re-string and make sure the neck doesn't move.

 

This is a truly beautiful instrument.

 

Thank you! I will try the fix for the neck screws. The fretboard is, in fact, higher on the treble side. I didn't know how to level it. I appreciate the help. I love the sound of this old guitar and want it to live long and prosper.

 

all the best,

ron

[TommyK]

Thank you! I will try the fix for the neck screws. The fretboard is, in fact, higher on the treble side. I didn't know how to level it. I appreciate the help. I love the sound of this old guitar and want it to live long and prosper.

 

all the best,

ron

 

See previous post.

 

 

Slacken all the strings so they are quite loose, but still wound around the tuning posts. Remove the neck screws.

Take one of the screws to the hardware store and get four exact copies, diameter, length, same head diameter and type. Round head (with a flat base, no countersink), wood screw, probably a #12 if my memory serves me, and sometimes it don't. Partially threaded from the point, smooth towards the head. My originals were rusted to the point the threads were quite dull and my thinking was they wouldn't 'bite' as good as when they were new, so I replaced them.

 

Make sure there is no glue squeeze-out, wood shards, wood filler, tobacco spittle, or other foreign material between the neck and neck block.

 

After acquiring new screws reposition the neck in the pocket, make sure the screws go into the original screw holes. Tighten them up making sure the neck does not come away from the pocket. This is important because when screwing two pieces of wood together, if screw threads grab both pieces at once, they can actually be driven apart. Don't ask me how, they just do. You want no gaps at all between the neck block and neck when you are done. When that is accomplished, tune the guitar to pitch, then watch. Does the neck begin to pull away from the neck block? If so the screw holes in the neck are worn out. Easy fix. Remove the neck as above. A capo may be useful to hold the old strings on. Get a couple tooth picks. Coat them with wood glue then jamb them into the four neck holes. You don't need to fill the holes. One or two per hole will do it. After the glue dries, trim the picks flush with the neck then reinstall the neck as above. Tune the guitar to pitch, then watch the joint for movement.

 

You will want to try to keep the same strings on the neck for this entire operation, as you need to test full tension on the joint. Notice that you've dis-assembled and re-assembled the guitar a couple times. I'd hate to waste a full set of strings each time you opened the joint.

 

 

 

Also, how thick is the shim you put in there? If it is significantly thick, say more than 1/8", you may need longer screws. They come in 1/4" increments, so be careful you don't run a screw up through the fret board. If you shim, make it nearly as wide and deep as the pocket is. Old credit cards, with embossed lettering flattened or shaved off, make good shim stock. Where the screws will come through the shim, bore or punch holes a bit larger than the neck block holes so the screws don't grab the shim(s).

[dknelson]

I am new here. Just happened upon this thread while doing a search for information about my own FT-150. I bought this guitar new in either 1971 or 1972 from a small music store in NE Texas. That would make it right at 40 years old. I knew very little about guitars at the time and my purchase decision was primarily based upon the fact that I thought it was pretty. I came to realize later on that the action was always high on it. I pretty much put it away and haven't played it much over the years.

 

I have a couple of other acoustics, including a Seagull and a Yamaha. A few weeks ago though, I decided to take the old Epiphone to a highly recommended luthier not too far from me. I live in Ohio now and the luthier is located not too far from me in Twinsburg, OH.

 

It turned out that the old guitar needed a good deal of work. Perhaps because I had never stored it properly but the blocks that make up the neck pocket had come loose, one of the top braces was loose, I had somehow managed to lose the saddle over the years etc. Well the estimate to get it all repaired was pretty high but when I told him that I just didn't want to spend that kind of money on it, he told me that he is a bit slow this time of the year and offered to do the work at a reduced price. So...in spite of it costing probably as much as the guitar is worth, I decided to have it done.

 

I picked the guitar up just yesterday and am absolutely amazed at the way it plays and sounds now. He ended up rebuilding the neck pocket, adding some extended blocks so that it will never come lose again. He reset the neck angle, made a new compensated saddle, leveled and dressed the frets and set the action to what he called "Martin specs". He finished by stringing it with D'Addario EXP custom light PB 11's. The action is very nice now and comparable to the action on my Seagull which I absolutely love. The guitar sounds great. He had even posted on his Facebook page about my guitar with the comment that "a laminate top guitar is just not supposed to sound this good".

 

So, I'm extremely pleased with it. I know it's not a collectors piece and I probably spent at least as much as it is worth but I guess it was a sentimental decision after owning it for so long. I have no regrets and actually love playing it now.

 

[TommyK]

Congrats dknelson on getting your weak-necked Norlin era FT Epiphone back to playing order.

 

The loose neck block was probably not any of your doing. It was underdesigned from the get-go. I've repaired my FT145SB and have been quite happy with it. Yours is a bit fancier version of my 145.

 

Here's a catalog from that era you might be interested in.

 

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/epiphone/catalogs/1974/catalog_th.html

 

I'd love to see the repair work if you can get a mirror down inside the sound-hole.

 

Here is the detail of my fix. Scroll down to the bottom to check out the reinforcement.

 

My Fix

[dknelson]

Sorry for the slow reply. Didn't get the email notification for some reason. I'm out of town on a business trip right now but will try to get some pictures of it when I get home this weekend.

 

Thanks for the link, that is pretty cool.

 

Don

[TommyK]

That's all right, I don't check in here that often anyways.