Les Paul truss rod

[MTA61]

I just got a new Epiphone '56 Gold Top and was doing my setup on it. When I checked relief I had about .002. I like to set mine up around .010. When I went to loosen the truss rod I found that the truss rod nut was already completely loose, so how am I going to get any more relief?

 

I started to loosen it up even more and the nut started to tighten up in the direction it should be loosening. It gave me the .010 I was looking for.

 

My question is, does Epi use bi-flex truss rods on the '56 Gold tops? That is the only reason I can see that it got more relief as I loosened the nut yet it got tighter?

 

We get a lot of humidity on the East Coast in the summer, and I always have to loosen my truss rods in July or August.I don't want to be screwed come the summer if this has a defective truss rod. I would rather exchange it now.

 

The only way this could have worked is if these have a bi-flex truss rod, if not then something must be wrong with this truss rod.

 

Thanks for any help!

[bug music]

AFAIK there are no Epi Bi-Flex truss rods. If the adjustment seems to be tightening as you loosen, it's probably because the truss rod nut is hitting against the string nut.

 

I have a Gretsch like that, it had almost no relief (and no buzz) when I bought it, and when I adjusted it I could only get about .008 before the nut is totally loose. It didn't buzz mind you, but I'm not one to leave well enough alone ;) .

 

I ended up setting it to about .006-.007 which keeps a little tension on the nut, and there has been no buzzing for a couple of years. I live in the North East which has pretty extreme temperature and humidity changes between seasons, and have not had any problems.

 

Sometimes people over-estimate the effects of climatic changes on the wood in guitar necks. Yes, there is some effect, but it is surprising just how solid and stable a good piece of hard maple is, provided it is dried correctly during manufacturing . My advice is put a little tension on the nut and if it's not buzzing (especially on the lower to middle frets), I wouldn't worry too much. Hopefully this helps.

 

- Jay

[Old Bob]

I've got three Epi's, and the only contribution I ever seem to be able to make to this forum is about the ES175 and it's thin side sections ... this may be about to change. Since I'm trying to learn about guitars, as well as play them, I like to do my own set-ups - and this includes oiling the truss rod nut, checking it's free to move etc (sometimes they get varnished up). I encountered exactly the same problem you describe on my ES175. I thought there was something wrong, until I eventually worked out it must be a dual-action rod. It's the only explanation I can think of. Screw nut in; nut goes tight; relief reduced: screw nut out; nut goes slack (even though the adjustment on the neck seems fine); keep screwing out; nut goes tight; relief increased. I left it with just a touch of extra relief, and everything's been fine for six months or more.

 

I did some Googling and the results suggested the dual rod was a better form of adjustment (fine adjustment in both directions), but that you get extra wieght in the neck and maybe a slightly brighter sound - because of that extra metalwork in there. Although it may be a more sophisticated method of adjustment, it seems the dual-rod also allows less stable woods to be used in the neck - because whichever way the neck eventually goes, there's a means of correcting it. I assume that's the reason the dual rod is in there - that it allows less stables woods to be used.

 

That's the limit of my knowledge on the subject, and none of it is original - just stuff I found out online. You would think though that if they are beginning to use dual-action rods it would be indicated on the guitar somewhere. It's possible to do an awful lot of damage trying to get the rod to adjust if you don't know which rod you're dealing with. You're either dead right in what you say - or we're both in trouble.

 

Bob

[Dave]

MTA61, what guage strings are on the guitar? If they are 8's, maybe the string tension isn't up to spec. 9's are factory spec. In any case, I'd call the manufacturer before I got into a problem down the road. I like an almost flat neck, but like you, I have to adjust slightly between Summer and Winter in the Southeast. With 10's I have to tighten the truss rod on my Epi LP custom about 1/4 turn to go from about .015 loose to almost flat. I imagine if I had 9's or 8's the adjustment would be less.

[MTA61]

Thanks for everyone's help. Dave, I use 10-46 on all my electrics, so I don't think it's from not enough tension.

 

I've been doing my own setups, making my own nuts, and guitar wiring for over 25 years and I've never had a truss rod that feels like this. It worked great to get the extra relief, I just want to be sure it is a bi-flex truss rod and not a problem with a standard rod.

 

I tried to loosen it as much as I could without forcing it and it it stops turning with about .016 relief, completely loose is about .007, and of course if you tighten it up you can get the neck totally flat.I checked the date this guitar was made and it was built in September of 2007 at the Qingdau plant.

 

Hopefully it is a bi-flex rod as I like the guitar and would hate to send it back. I don't want to end up with problems down the road if it's not a bi-flex though.

[Old Bob]

I probably haven't got the experience to be that much help - but (for a prospective jazzer) I use a fairly light set of 11's, so I don't think tension was my problem either. And, to repeat myself, I experienced *exactly* the same symptoms - and a dual-action rod is the only explanation I could come up with; but without any indication on the guitar itself, and without other posts drawing attention to the use of dual-action rods, it's hard to say. My 175 is an August 2007, made in Indonesia (I carefully peeled that label off) - so maybe it's a fairly recent development. You would think, on an Epi forum, that someone else would have come across this.

 

Bob

[RotcanX]

Actually I think that's the case. What there is, is a nut inside a sleeve (take a look and I think you'll see what I mean), and as you back off the nut it goes loose then it comes up against the sleeve and starts applying tension in the other direction, increasing the relief.

[bug music]

I don't know about the dual action truss rods in the Epi's but it is entirely possible. Just make sure that the added relief is not from the truss rod nut jammed against the string nut, pushing down on the rod. If that is the case there will be a lot of pressure pushing on the nut, and it could pop loose damaging some of the finish around it.

 

I also had a Tele once that buzzed like crazy, and suffered from the same overly straight neck symptom. I fixed that one by stringing it up with 11's, tuning it a full step sharp loosening the truss rod, and leaving it sitting in the case for a week or so. It has been fine for years since the "fix". Sometimes a pesky piece of maple just has to be shown who the boss is. :)

 

Hopefully this helps.

 

- Jay

[MTA61]

It's definitely not pressing up against the nut bug music, it's too far down in the route to hit it. RotcanX I will take a closer look at the nut later today and see if it has the sleeve.

 

It would be cool if they started using bi-flex rods! I hope so, otherwise this truss rod has issues!

[Old Bob]

Actually I think that's the case. What there is' date=' is a nut inside a sleeve (take a look and I think you'll see what I mean), and as you back off the nut it goes loose then it comes up against the sleeve and starts applying tension in the other direction, increasing the relief.[/quote']

 

 

RotcanX:

 

Yes - I see what you mean - this is beginning to make sense. If fact a problem with the rod is now making more sense to me than the likelihood of Epiphone fitting fancy dual-action rods. I'm going to take a look too now - just when I thought I understood it. I suppose I should say 'thank you' - well, I *do* say thank you; but I still hope you're wrong.

 

Bob

[RotcanX]

Hey, man.. I'm never wrong.

[MTA61]

Well I couldn't wait, I had to know now! It appears RotcanX is Correct! I just assumed the whole silver nut was moving like on my other guitars. I've even taken the truss rod nut off on one guitar and added a washer to correct for wood compression. On the Epi it has a black nut inside the silver bushing. The bushing doesn't move , just the nut inside.

 

It looks like Epi is now using bi-flex truss rods!:D/

 

Thanks RotcanX!!

[Old Bob]

OK RotcanX thanks - think I just misunderstood you for a moment there. If I have this right now you're saying the nut inside the sleeve IS a form of dual-action rod; and this is certainly what seems to be the case with the ES175. The nut (which is actually a socket) turns, but the sleeve doesn't - just as MTA61 describes - and Epis (some of them at least) are using dual-action rods. Maybe owners of the newer models from the newer factories ought to double-check this before they start adjusting truss rods. AND - it seems it's true - RotcanX is never wrong.

 

Thanks

 

Bob

[franta]

Sorry for asking again I new here... I just bought new Epiphone Les Paul Standard and I am trying to setup the neck. So is it really true that Epiphone now uses dual action truss rods in Les Pauls? (Mine was made in Indonesia, but I dont know how to figure out year).

[brad1]

(Mine was made in Indonesia' date=' but I dont know how to figure out year).[/quote']

 

 

what is the serial number? That will tell you the year.

[franta]

Well it's 2009 made in Indonesia (0912233232) ... I'd like to set a little bigger relief, but I don't want to damage the neck so I need to know whether it has dual action truss rod or not.

[KX36]

Apart from in this thread, I've never heard of Epi using biflex truss rods. To me it seems that the people in this thread have bad necks with too much backbow and they're turning their truss rods so far out of the range they're supposed to be in that the rod is pushing on something rather than the usual pull. This would be expected in a biflex rod, but in a standard rod, that means their metal strings and rod are BOTH opposing the wood of the neck rather than opposing eachother, which is very very bad.

 

Unless Epiphone publish something to the contrary, assume that all Epiphones are standard truss rods and don't adjust them further than they want to go or you could end up wrecking your guitar.

[james_edward]

Well it's 2009 made in Indonesia (0912233232) ... I'd like to set a little bigger relief' date=' but I don't want to damage the neck so I need to know whether it has dual action truss rod or not.[/quote']

 

You're not going to damage the neck by backing off the nut to gain some relief, I wouldn't even loosen the strings. Back the nut off an 1/8 of a turn and you should see a difference in the relief, if not another 1/8 turn should do it.

 

If it's a regular rod - which I'm sure it is, never heard of bi-flex Epi rods - it will get easier to turn as you back off, not harder.

 

If you do need to tighten it up, just drop the string tension and do it, and go back to where you started, it's that simple, good luck.

[franta]

Thats the thing... I was trying to loosen it at first it started to turn easily and as I continued turning it started to turn harder...

[james_edward]

You only need a small amount of rotation, like I said, 1/8 to 1/4 is enough to add relief.

 

If you turn it out too many times and it starts to get hard to turn again, your just at the point where you'll destroy the guitar if it's not a Bi-flex rod.

 

So, put some tension back on the nut on it and tune it up, then check the relief and go back to adjusting, from there.

[franta]

You only need a small amount of rotation' date=' like I said, 1/8 to 1/4 is enough to add relief.

 

If you turn it out too many times and it starts to get hard to turn again, your just at the point where you'll destroy the guitar if it's not a Bi-flex rod.

 

So, put some tension back on the nut on it and tune it up, then check the relief and go back to adjusting, from there.[/quote']

 

I am trying to prevent destroying the guitar by asking here So Epiphone surely uses normal single action truss rod right? I thought that normal truss rods when loosen entirely can be pulled out...

 

Does epiphone somewhere state what they are using?