Epi Joe Pass: Tailpiece Tomfoolery

[SoloTy]

Hey all

Ive recently come into possession of an Epi Joe Pass (really dark cherry sort of burst.. almost a sunburst)

There's something about it I'm stumped with, though.

When I have all the strings on it, the strings go on an angle towards the bridge from the tailpiece and will sometimes force the bridge to move over slightly so that that strings are at a halfway point between each polepiece.

If I take two heavy strings and put them on the high and low end and tune them to the same pitch, it stays straight.. So I'm thinking that there needs to be some compensation for the light strings as opposed to the heavy, because the stronger tension from the heavier strings is causing the TP to go sideways, or something...

I just need to know... What can I do!?!?!?

 

Thanks, as always,

Ty

[SoloTy]

PS.

It's an 02 Samick... Gorgeous guitar... Not a flaw on it, besides this.. But I think it may be the work of the previous owner...

[dubstar]

I'd be really interested in this, as mine does the same thing...I was told it does not affect how the guitar

plays or tone, but as you noted, the bridge will slide over if not tuned to pitch, so I wonder if there is unequal

pressure being place on the point of contact between the bridge and top...

 

the original tailpiece seemed to be installed a bit too far to the left of center...using "C" for center, "T" for tailpiece,

and "S" to indicate the tailpiece, it looked like this:

 

T S S C (just realized I'm a lefty, so this is probably reverse of what you are trying to visualize)

 

and it pulled the strings towards the treble side...I wanted to install a frequensator, so I thought I would

install it a bit more towards center to correct this...so I installed it like this:

 

S S T C (can you visualize it being closer to center now? I was told they are never dead center and

checked a few in the shops)

 

after I strung it up, it now pulled the strings / bridge slightly over to bass side! so now I don't know if I

should redrill slightly towards the original holes, like:

 

S T S C

 

which looks like it would correct the problem...but does it even make a difference? might be more of a mental thing than

anything else...guitar seems to play and sound well, but when you get these issues in your head, you second-guess and

imagine it does not sound or play quite right...

 

thanks

[layboomo]

I have a 97 samick Joe Pass too that I modified...great guitars! When I put my new tailpiece on I put both e strings on loosely and lined the strings up centered on the the pickup screws then I marked the holes for the new tail piece and drilled them. It worked great but these style tailpieces do not sit dead center on the guitar. Mine wound up being off toward the bass side. I hope that helps?

There is also a little trick to fitting the bridges to an archtop,particularly the ones that don't have a split center on the wooden base. While you have the guitar apart...you put a piece of sandpaper upside down on the guitar where the bridge sits and then you lightly sand the bottom of the bridge base to match the contour of the guitar top.

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Mandolin/FitBridgeFeet/fitfeet.html

[Ricochet]

I'm not familiar with the Joe Pass model, nor do I own a "Jazzbox". But assuming the bigger pull of the bass-strings is skidding the non fixed bridge towards the bass-side?

If the string-insert-holes of the tailpiece can take 2 strings, you could string it up like this:

(Apologies for the lame schematic)

 

 

E A D G B e

 

_ _ _ _ _ _ neck

 

| | | | | | strings

 

_ _ _ _ _ _ bridge

 

| | | |

 

0 • •• • • • tail

 

 

0 = empty

• = string ball-end

 

So the E string goes where the A goes, and the A goes together with the D.

The theory behind this, it will create some side-pull towards the treble side.

 

Not sure it will work tho. :-)

 

I strictly offer this as a temporary solution until you guys can afford a decent tailpece.

[carverman]

I'm not familiar with the Joe Pass model' date=' nor do I own a "Jazzbox". But assuming the bigger pull of the bass-strings is skidding the non fixed bridge towards the bass-side?

If the string-insert-holes of the tailpiece can take 2 strings, you could string it up like this:

[/quote']

 

Why the tp offsets folks? I got two of these beauties and I used the gold GFS tp to

replace the lyre style oem tp and the strings and tp line up all the way to the nut.

One thing that I do like about the GFS style jazz box tp besides the compensation built

into the bass strings and real hinge is the Guild style look.

[layboomo]

I should also add that my factory tailpiece had a slight offset as well toward the bass side.

[dubstar]

good information...so if the strings are only slightly misaligned between the TP and the bridge, do you

think it makes any difference in tone, intonation, or playability? if not, I won't bother redrilling...

[layboomo]

good information...so if the strings are only slightly misaligned between the TP and the bridge' date=' do you

think it makes any difference in tone, intonation, or playability? if not, I won't bother redrilling...[/quote']

 

Thats a good question I looked at a bunch of archtops before I drilled mine(being new to archtop modding) and what I found was that all the photo's of the stock Epi JP guitars had the TP slightly offset while all of the guitars I saw with the frequensator style TP's were dead center....I went with the offset. My guess is that it keeps the bridge in place better,but thats just a guess?

[carverman]

Well here's mine. Not offset and intonation is right on. Plays beautifully. I did have

to drill a new hole for the strap button in the middle of the tp as the old holes

were offset and didn't match up with the holes on the new tp.

 

EDIT: The only way the tp would be offset is if the neck alignment from the nut

to the center of the guitar is slightly offset..or possibly the tp is offset itself as

far as the 3 holes drilled.

 

[dubstar]

interesting photo on that frets link, showing what appears to be strings offset below the bridge on a mandolin:

 

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Mandolin/FitBridgeFeet/FitFeetViews/fitfeet12.jpg

[layboomo]

Well here's mine. Not offset and intonation is right on. Plays beautifully. I did have

to drill a new hole for the strap button in the middle of the tp as the old holes

were offset and didn't match up with the holes on the new tp.

 

EDIT: The only way the tp would be offset is if the neck alignment from the nut

to the center of the guitar is slightly offset..or possibly the tp is offset itself as

far as the 3 holes drilled.

 

 

Was your original Epi bridge drilles dead center? Here is a pic from MF and you can see it's just slightly off center as mine was.

[carverman]

 

Was your original Epi bridge drilled dead center?

 

The old tp was a mess. bent by the former owner for whatever reason and the hinge

part was open enough that the string mount fell away if all the strings were removed

at once. This is NOT a good design as far as I'm concerned. The center screw (where

the strap button screws in was offset slightly but not by much. The whole thing was

hokey and the bridge had to be pushed over to compensate. A little tlc at the

Korean factory could have avoided all this. Just because one guitar has an error

in the neck offset (from center) doesn't mean that all of them do...that is the difference

with the Gibson QC..they should spot this and reject them for rework.

Anyway..it's my two cents worth of critical critique to what is otherwise a beautiful

instrument, worthy of the Epiphone name.

[dubstar]

is there any reason why the exact center of the bottom of a guitar needs to be exactly centered with

the neck and headstock? obviously this is not true with offset guitars...

[layboomo]

 

Was your original Epi bridge drilled dead center?

 

The old tp was a mess. bent by the former owner for whatever reason and the hinge

part was open enough that the string mount fell away if all the strings were removed

at once. This is NOT a good design as far as I'm concerned. The center screw (where

the strap button screws in was offset slightly but not by much. The whole thing was

hokey and the bridge had to be pushed over to compensate. A little tlc at the

Korean factory could have avoided all this. Just because one guitar has an error

in the neck offset (from center) doesn't mean that all of them do...that is the difference

with the Gibson QC..they should spot this and reject them for rework.

Anyway..it's my two cents worth of critical critique to what is otherwise a beautiful

instrument' date=' worthy of the Epiphone name. [/quote']

 

Yeah I agree the original tailpiece is a POS! Hmmm interesting I wonder why they all seem to be off slightly though....seems they meant to do it becuase it ain't hard to find the center line on that guitar!

[dubstar]

that's what I was getting at...

[carverman]

 

Yeah I agree the original tailpiece is a POS! Hmmm interesting I wonder why they all seem to be off slightly though....seems they meant to do it becuase it ain't hard to find the center line on that guitar!

 

Maybe their drill jig was off slightly..who knows it happened way back in Korea.

Somebody provided the measurements for the drill jig.

Yes, the center of the neck doesn't have

to be aligned with the center of the guitar, but the more it is, the less offset you need

to do on the movable bridge..and the strings should align with the adjustable screws

on the p_ups better as well as the high e string having more fret room to the edge of the

binding where the fret is sloped for comfort.

[SoloTy]

Ok.

So I think I'm just going to scrap the old tailpiece and just measure and fit a new, better tp. Hopefully this works....

Two questions.

First, Do you have any tips on how I can get this fitted right? I don't want to screw this up...

Second, I'm thinking I'm going to get one of the GFS tps... Which one do you think is appropriate? I'm thinking this one http://store.guitarfetish.com/caophatagofo.html is the best choice.. looks nice too.

What do you guys think?

[layboomo]

Ok.

So I think I'm just going to scrap the old tailpiece and just measure and fit a new' date=' better tp. Hopefully this works....

Two questions.

First, Do you have any tips on how I can get this fitted right? I don't want to screw this up...

Second, I'm thinking I'm going to get one of the GFS tps... Which one do you think is appropriate? I'm thinking this one http://store.guitarfetish.com/caophatagofo.html is the best choice.. looks nice too.

What do you guys think?[/quote']

 

Thats the one that carverman has on his and the GFS TP's are nice! I went with the larger chrome TP because I changed all my hardware to chrome. According to carverman just hold the center line with the bottom screw and you should be fine...but you will have to drill a new strap button hole or just use the bottom screw location ....correct carverman?

 

Edit don't forget to make sure you have a good string ground connection....the wire can slip inside if you're not carfeful.

[SoloTy]

Alright, man, thanks a lot.

That makes perfect sense, and it should look about 10 times better.

Unfortunately, the old holes from the TP are the slightest bit off, so I may have to fill those and re-drill.

Thanks a TON for all the help, guys.

Ty

[carverman]

 

Thats the one that carverman has on his and the GFS TP's are nice! I went with the larger chrome TP because I changed all my hardware to chrome. According to carverman just hold the center line with the bottom screw and you should be fine...but you will have to drill a new strap button hole or just use the bottom screw location ....correct carverman?

 

Edit don't forget to make sure you have a good string ground connection....the wire can slip inside if you're not carfeful.

 

Well the lower hole on the GFS tp is closer to the back than the oem tp.

You can use the lower hole for the strap button if you want to avoid drilling new holes, but

the center block inside will take a few holes without any adverse effects. BTW..the new

tp requires relocating 3 new holes..and best to predrill them to avoid wrecking the screw

heads.

I decided it wouldn't look right, (even though I don't wear a strap,

and drilled a new hole about midpoint (in between the other two screw holes)

to have a good strap button location.

[dubstar]

"and best to predrill them to avoid wrecking the screw

heads"

 

I can confirm this LOL (and I even drilled, that's some hard wood in there and the original screws I had were cheap)

[Dan]

(Providing the centerline is NOT that far off on the tailpiece)...On some tailpieces you can simply loosen the top two screws...adjust either of the screws in and out while watching the front of the tailpiece move left or right. If this doesnt work you might try adding a shim to either side. The front of the tailpiece can really be moved quite a bit, especially on Gibson style tails (by loosening or tightening the left or right screws). Begin by backing off both screws---watch the tailpiece and stop turning the screws when its aligned to the best position, strings not tight of course :-)

 

If this doesnt work, try a Gretsch style "Space Control Bridge". On this particular bridge, one can adjust the position of the strings (treble to bass) left to right, essentially aligning the bridge with the off center tailpiece. Once you get the strings aligned from the tail to the bridge, the bridge should not be under pressure to "self" align with the tailpiece position...(move about).

Hope this helps

 

Dan

 

[dubstar]

so, Dan...basically what you are saying is that if the TP is only slightly offset and

you can get the strings to remain seated over the polepieces when tuned to pitch (thereby

holding down a floating bridge) then there shouldn't be any major playability / tonal /

intonation issues if the strings below the bridge are slightly offset / angled?

 

 

considering you are the new archtop king around here, thanks for the info...

[Dan]

That sounds pretty close dubstar...fingerstyle players use this style bridge for repositioning the strings for their particular style of playing. However, the most important factor would be the centerline position of the tailpiece. If its off too far, I'm sure the concerns you mentioned would be effected....

 

I've seen this problem with Other Tailpieces on newer archtop guitars, From all brands...probably a result of the body/neck expanding or shrinking? Surely the manufacturers wouldnt install the tailpiece off center :-) Another tailpiece concern- is sometimes the string bar is not straight (see photo) and can create problems.

 

I've also noticed more and more headstock tuners are installed unevenly...