JOHN LENNON 1965 CASINO NUMBERING/PRODUCTION

[seajam]

I just purchased used, number 76 of the Lennon 65 Sunburst series. It has all of the labels and stuff, but when I inquired at Epiphone when exactly this guitar was made, they told me September of 2008. My questions are:

 

1. Since they are only supposed to have produced 1965 of these guitars, when did they start production, and how far along in production are they? I was under the impression that production started in 1999.

 

2. Is it possible that number 76 was produced in Semptember of 2008?

 

3. How can these guitars be so readily available via online retailers? 1965 guitars isn't that many to sell world wide in ten years.

 

If anyone has any specific knowledge as to these guitars please inform me. Thanks.

[JefferySmith]

Did you buy it on ebay? There is some clown on ebay who takes regular Casinos, changes a few things like tuners, removes the pickguard, and then calls it a John Lennon 1965 Revolution guitar for $1300. If you got one of those, the serial number will take you straight to a regular Korean-built Casino with some mods.

[seajam]

Yes, bought it on ebay, but there is no serial number apart from the "Lennon" serial number on the back of the headstock. It's not a Revolution, it's the 1965 sunburst version. It's got the white sticker inside numbered 76, and came with the various certificates of authenticity, and the case with the Lennon cartoon on it.

[charlie brown]

Hmmmm? Wasn't there some controversy, some time ago, about Yoko being upset, that Gibson didn't leave

the issue at 1965 (each), and built more...or was continuing to built them past the original cut-off number? Seems like

I read that, somewhere...but, maybe I'm "dreaming?" LOL!

 

 

CB

[seajam]

Even if that is true, would they start the numbering back at zero? If so, that is outrageous, and should be made known to the public. A limited run, is a limited run. I'd really like to get to the bottom of this. Thanks.

[JefferySmith]

Hmmmm? Wasn't there some controversy' date=' some time ago, about Yoko being upset, that Gibson didn't leave

the issue at 1965 (each), and built more...or was continuing to built them past the original cut-off number? Seems like

I read that, somewhere...but, maybe I'm "dreaming?" LOL!

 

 

CB[/quote']

If she didn't get paid for the additional ones, I'm sure she was upset.

 

I'm really not familiar with the sunburst John Lennon models. Those must have come out and been sold out prior to my belated reinterest in guitars.

[charlie brown]

Even if that is true' date=' would they start the numbering back at zero? If so, that is outrageous, and should be made known to the public. A limited run, is a limited run. I'd really like to get to the bottom of this. Thanks.[/quote']

 

Well, don't worry about it, Yet...I'm not even sure there was a controversy...but, I seem to remember something

to do with there being more than 1965 made, of each version... Just can't seem to find that article, now. So...

don't get upset, yet. Might be, "just another lousy rumor," as John used to say. ;>)

 

Gibson/Epiphone CS should know....I'll try to call them, and find out...

 

CB

[charlie brown]

OK, Gibson Customer Service ("Benton" was the person I spoke to) said they are still being made,

and that the 1965 number IS the cutoff...but not all 1,965 of each have been made, yet...or, so it seems.

They didn't make all 1,965 of each version, in 1 or 2 runs, but do a few, as orders are made, and shipments

completed. So, there was no "cut-off" date, regarding production...as of yet, anyway. I'm sure, they'll announce

it, at least to their dealers (and probably on thier web-site) once the Ltd Edition is completed.

So, it would seem, that a guitar with a 2008 construction date, is valid! There were "no over-runs,"

released, either! The contract/agreement with the Lennon estate is for only 1965 of each model! ANY "b" stock,

or "R" (refurb) will be part of the original 1,965 guitars, of each version, made. I.E. NO overruns, or replacements!

So, I hope that helps clarify what Gibson/Epiphone is doing, regarding the "Lennon" Casino's.

 

CB

[frenchie1281734003]

OK' date=' Gibson Customer Service ("Benton" was the person I spoke to) said they are still being made,

and that the 1965 number IS the cutoff...but not all 1,965 of each have been made, yet...or, so it seems.

They didn't make all 1,965 of each version, in 1 or 2 runs, but do a few, as orders are made, and shipments

completed. So, there was no "cut-off" date, regarding production...as of yet, anyway. I'm sure, they'll announce

it, at least to their dealers (and probably on thier web-site) once the Ltd Edition is completed.

So, it would seem, that a guitar with a 2008 construction date, is valid! There were "no over-runs,"

released, either! The contract/agreement with the Lennon estate is for only 1965 of each model! ANY "b" stock,

or "R" (refurb) will be part of the original 1,965 guitars, of each version, made. I.E. NO overruns, or replacements!

So, I hope that helps clarify what Gibson/Epiphone is doing, regarding the "Lennon" Casino's.

 

CB[/quote']

 

Charlie I take all that on board, but what confuses me, is that mine is number 1171 and was first purchased new in 2003!! Why would number 76 be produced five years later than that, surely these are produced in sequence!. It is also a fact that there is supposed to be 1965 guitars of each version (As you state, making 3930 guitars), and that Gibson held back some of the low number (Completed guitars), and I have seen some of these sold as pairs.

 

There are still some unanswered questions about these Casino`s, and they can still be found in the May 2007 catalogue that I have to hand, but with no mention at all about them being a limited reissue.

 

Recently a few Lennon Casino`s of both type have been sold on ebay, without any hardware, and apparently these were spares for owners who may have had warrenty issues, and this seems to make sense. Plus these carcasses do appear to be genuine, none of them carried the White "Limited edition" label, but a few did have the Blue Kalamazoo one. Some of them had screw holes for the hardware already, and some didn`t. Hopefully someone out there has some more answers. As for Seajam`s number 76, I would guess it was made in 99/2000, with that low serial, but I cannot be sure.

[charlie brown]

Hey, all I'm doing is relating what "Gibson/Epiphone" told me! I'm sure the agreement/contract with Yoko, was for the

intial Limited Edition run Only! Otherwise, as has been rightly stated, it's NOT a "Limited Edition," and would seriously

devalue it's collectibility and resale value, down the road...whatever that might be. But, whenever and wherever there's money to be made (legit or otherwise), things will come out of the woodwork, so to speak. #76 might be one that was held back. Didn't they (Gibson/Epiphone) say 100 or so of each were held back, originally? And, out of that number, some probably were sold, as "sets." And, after they're sold, they may be resold again by the initial owners? Who knows?

As to lables? Anyone with a digital camera, "Photo Illustration" software, and a scanner/printer can make "lables"

blue, white, or othewise, all day long! So, unless one is buying directly from an authorized dealer, and has all the documentation, case candy, and the original "Lennon" case, with graphic...It would be prudent, to be suspect, of ANY other alledged "Lennon" Casino(s). There's just too much money to be made, with "fakes," well executed or not, to a less than educated buying public.

The bodies, even with the correct serial numbers, but no documentation, and/or lables, would be not be honored as an authentic, original numbered edition, by Gibson, obviously. So, they'd have no collectable value (beyond that of a curiosity, possibly), in the future. Might as well just get a Elitist, and "Lennonize" it, if it's for your own enjoyment, in that case. But, it would be more difficult to trace, the ones that did have the Lennon serial number stamped in the headstock. Especially, if the owner/builder used the authentic (and not cheap) parts. However...someone with the right tools/wood stamps, could even do that, if they wanted to. So...???

 

CB

[duane v]

Here's my long story about getting a JL Rev

 

part1:

7 months ago I purchased a JL REV hunk of wood with no holes drilled and no hardware. It came with both inner labels 87/1965. I sold it to a guy at work, and as far as I know it's still has no work done to it.

 

Part 2:

I purchased another JL REV that was almost complete, it was missing the bridge and a few other items, and it didn't have the case. It only came with the blue inner kalamazoo label. I sold that to a pal, and he was able to get all the parts to finish it.

 

Part 3:

Joined this sight about 1 month ago and asked if I could order a JL Rev, and didn't get a clear answer, but did get an answer from Guitar Center that Epiphone is still producing them, and it would take 3-6 months to get,....... but at the low low price of $3300.

 

I did some searching through private auctions, and all the California craigslist and found one in the Sacramento area a young girl had which her father purchased for her in 2002, (the girl was only 12-13 at the time). It had power-puff girl stickers all over it#-o , but it had all the case candy minus the black knob. The PU covers were temporarily missing, but her mom foundnd them, and shipped them to me a few days later.

 

I went the long road on this but I saved $$$$... I only paid $700 for the guitar... and $90 for the round trip plane ticket to go pick it up, because they wouldn't ship the guitar.

[Nelson]

Hey' date=' all I'm doing is relating what "Gibson/Epiphone" told me! I'm sure the agreement/contract with Yoko, was for the

intial Limited Edition run Only! Otherwise, as has been rightly stated, it's NOT a "Limited Edition," and would seriously

devalue it's collectibility and resale value, down the road...whatever that might be. But, whenever and wherever there's money to be made (legit or otherwise), things will come out of the woodwork, so to speak. #76 might be one that was held back. Didn't they (Gibson/Epiphone) say 100 or so of each were held back, originally? And, out of that number, some probably were sold, as "sets." And, after they're sold, they may be resold again by the initial owners? Who knows?

As to lables? Anyone with a digital camera, "Photo Illustration" software, and a scanner/printer can make "lables"

blue, white, or othewise, all day long! So, unless one is buying directly from an authorized dealer, and has all the documentation, case candy, and the original "Lennon" case, with graphic...It would be prudent, to be suspect, of ANY other alledged "Lennon" Casino(s). There's just too much money to be made, with "fakes," well executed or not, to a less than educated buying public.

The bodies, even with the correct serial numbers, but no documentation, and/or lables, would be not be honored as an authentic, original numbered edition, by Gibson, obviously. So, they'd have no collectable value (beyond that of a curiosity, possibly), in the future. Might as well just get a Elitist, and "Lennonize" it, if it's for your own enjoyment, in that case. But, it would be more difficult to trace, the ones that did have the Lennon serial number stamped in the headstock. Especially, if the owner/builder used the authentic (and not cheap) parts. However...someone with the right tools/wood stamps, could even do that, if they wanted to. So...???

 

CB[/quote']

 

Even the "authentic" Lennon reissues are never going to have a huge premium beyond the value as a curiosity. Had they been a truly limited run and made by Gibson rather than a contract factory in Asia they'd still only ever would have been a "niche collectible". It's like any of that crap on TV of Franklin Mint commemorative collectors plates, coins or "limited run" anything. If it was designed as a collectible from the beginning it's not likely to ever actually be a collectible. The idea of limiting the run is to entice the modern day purchaser not to ensure any future desirability. The instruments that do generate premiums are never the ones at the time you think will someday be valuable.

 

I think the Lennon reissues are fabulous guitars but they're never going to worth a bundle because even 1, 965 are too many and that number has been played with and revised more than a few times. When I was first informed that a Lennon reissue Casino was in the works in 1997 the first numbers were 200 and a list price of $5K+...even that wouldn't have satisfied Gibson's margin requirements for a limited production instrument to be profitable so another way was found...Asian production with enough domestic processes to qualify for "Assembled In USA" I had a standing order for almost a year to pay list for two (one of each variety) numbered below "100" and my dealer had an order for ten, five of each kind. When it was revealed that production would be in Japan my dealer and I cancelled our orders as did many people. Sorry, in the Epiphone forum Asian production is OK...in the collectors' world... fergidaboudit. At the time Gibson also didn't think anyone would pay an elevated price for an instrument branded "Epiphone". They had tried this in 1993 with limited run instruments and they didn't sell and even now being Gibson Custom Shop level instruments these very limited run guitars don't command much premium.

 

Enjoy the guitars as a great alternative to having an original, insanely over-priced vintage Casino and forget about any future collectibility issues. As far as Yoko and her royalty I'm certain she is being compensated fairly what ever the final production number is. It's the suckers who bought them thinking they'd actually be limited in production and a future collectible I feel badly for. Great guitars but they're never going to command a huge premium. With all the over-runs, Blems and "B" stock instruments out there in addition to new production runs (I was told in 2002 that the run would end and 1,965 produced by early 2003 and five years later they're still making them?) I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't at least four thousand of them out there already and some with questionable pedigrees that were otherwise authentic reissues. As I said, great guitars. Just don't think that they're ever going to be uber-collectible.

 

 

Nelson

[charlie brown]

Well, I agree...believe it, or not? LOL! Really "Collectible" guitars, are gone! Gibson's (and others) may retain their face value, or even go up, because of inflation, and "marketing" (creating a demand, false or otherwise). But, that's it....unless it's really a rare model, and truly desirable. Sure, some younger "collectors" or those in the future, may decide our current guitars may be of some value (but, I doubt it will be much, since they're so mass produced, now). Maybe, truely hand made guitars, by small shops, or individual luthiers, will be the next "big thing?" At any rate, it doesn't matter (to me)...either way, as I have no "disposable inccome" for such foolishness, anyway. LOL!

 

Besides, the way music and technology is going, guitars...as we know them now, may be "history," a lot sooner,

than we might like?!

 

CB

[duane v]

Well' date=' I agree...

CB[/quote']

 

I don't agree.....

 

If you ask any person that lives in Korea, the first thing they will tell you when they want to purchase any items with a level of quality, they look straight to Japan, and that's a known fact.

 

Secondly, if those crappy mass produced Kay arch-top acoustic guitars that used to be sold in auto parts stores back in the 1960's can pull in as high as 800% of their original selling price (used). There is no reason why a JL REV wouldn't be a highly sought out instrument 30 years from now. Especially since the JL REV is infinitely better than any guitar Kay could ever dream of putting out.

 

The Luthier (71 years old) that takes care of all my guitars stated that the JL Rev is in the top 3 of all arch-tops he has ever laid his hands on. And the workmanship that was efforted towards building a JL Rev is very rare for guitars that are built today. And stated the JL Rev is a great representation of how guitars were built in the early 1960's.

 

I just get a sense that some have a real deep seeded discontent for the JL Rev. And for some reason during a JL Rev banter, Yoko's name almost always seems to be brought into it in a way, that's always associated with Yoko's hand being greased with tons of $$$$ from Epiphone/Gibson for putting out 2000 units of JL Casinos

 

Let's get real for a second and think about how much money Yoko is worth ($600 mil). I'm 100% sure a person of Yoko's wealth is hardly looking at 2000 guitars as a way to bolster her financial status...... seriously:-s

[charlie brown]

Duane, No one's arguing "quality" here, on the JL Casino. NO ONE! But..As to collectible? Who knows? You don't know, I don't either, for sure. Who thought ANY of this stuff would command prices that it does? And, WHY? Nostalgia, quite often, and Manufactured demand (AKA "Marketing"), just as/more often. They sold "Pet Rocks," if you remember, which is solid proof, that people will buy ANYTHING, if it's marketed correctly! In 30 years, those guitars might BE quite collectable, or not??? And...I'm not sure where you got the idea that I/we didn't like/even LOVE, the JL Casino's, but I'VE certainly never said THAT! I'd gladly, buy 2 of each, IF I could afford it!

 

As for Yoko....Well...I'm not going there...

 

 

CB

[frenchie1281734003]

I had to have a Casino built to mid sixties spec, I couldn`t afford an original, and to be honest I couldn`t afford a Lennon reissue either, if the truth be told. I was fortunate enough to get mine in a straight swap for a guitar I no longer used very much (so no cash involved). Will it be worth a bundle in years to come?.... probably not, but that hasn`t stopped me from putting away, carefully, my big White envelope with all it`s bits and pieces.

 

It is a hard thing to tell what may or may not become collectable in the future, and a lot of it is player driven anyway ( Johnny Borrell of Razorlight starts playing a Sh***y mid 70`s Gibson L6S, and they all of a sudden start to double, then triple in price!!). As for the Japanese guitars, quite a few of the premium Ibanez models from the late 70`s- mid 80`s are going up in value, and yesterday I was stunned to see a 1983 Westone Prestige 250 go for £687 on U.K. ebay, with 33 bids on it. That is $1020 USD at the current exchange rate, and back in July would have equated to $1374 USD. That is a stunning price for a Matsumoku made Westone model.

 

The early 50`s-mid 60`s U.S. made electric guitars are always going to go at a premium, but lets face facts here, all the best ones are already in private collections, and there are an awful lot of fakes, and dogs on the market masquerading as the real thing!

[Nelson]

 

I don't agree.....

 

If you ask any person that lives in Korea' date=' the first thing they will tell you when they want to purchase any items with a level of quality, they look straight to Japan, and that's a known fact.

 

[b']I'm sure this sounds logical to you but why would I ask someone in Korea for their perception of quality when I'm an American with my own perceptions of quality? I'm sure India looks good to someone in the Sudan too. I didn't say that Japanese products aren't high quality, I said the Lennon Casinos have nothing to give them any real future collectible premium. I know you'd like that to be different but based upon being active in that vintage guitar market thing for about thirty five years I kinda have seen what does and what doesn't...but don't let that stop your ego from subduing your brain. You have a right to your delusions...[/b]

 

Secondly, if those crappy mass produced Kay arch-top acoustic guitars that used to be sold in auto parts stores back in the 1960's can pull in as high as 800% of their original selling price (used). There is no reason why a JL REV wouldn't be a highly sought out instrument 30 years from now. Especially since the JL REV is infinitely better than any guitar Kay could ever dream of putting out.

 

That has nothing to do with the inherent value of those instruments. The dreamers and the wannabes inflated the market and the designation and definition of "vintage guitar" and the market expanded and grew so even Joe the plumber could afford to play "vintage" guitar collector. It's dreamers like you who want that crap to be valuable because that's what they have access to at their "stake level". E Bay is full of those whack job wannabe dreamers. In thirty years the Lennon Casinos will be selling for what other guitars at their current market price point are adjusted for inflation and possibly and very likely a deflation of guitar values. What Y2K Heritage 535s and other comparable guitars at its current price point are selling for in 2038 will be what the Lennons are going for. Forget using it as part of your retirement package unless you plan on spending your waning days in Bangladesh

 

The Luthier (71 years old) that takes care of all my guitars stated that the JL Rev is in the top 3 of all arch-tops he has ever laid his hands on. And the workmanship that was efforted towards building a JL Rev is very rare for guitars that are built today. And stated the JL Rev is a great representation of how guitars were built in the early 1960's.

 

So am I supposed to be impressed because he's seventy one years old? I happen to have about thirty five years of experience with guitars at the professional level..."professional" meaning this is what I did as an active business as a dealer and player...and when I say "dealer" I don't mean a kitchen table, a computer and an All-Parts dealer catalogue hoping to make my minimum for the month.. and I also happen to be a certified and bonded appraiser so I suppose I must need to know a little something huh?. I know just about exactly where they fall in terms of quality and workmanship and perhaps it's rare for that quality level considering current Asian guitars as a whole but let me explain something to you. The Casino in the early 60's was an entry/intermediate level guitar so sure, the Lennon Casino is all that. I happen to think the Lennon Casino is maybe superior to those early Casinos. Ever play a 60's Casino? I own one and love it. Extraordinary manufacturing components and quality? Not hardly. My bog standard '96 Japanese Casino isn't far removed from it. I like the vibe of the nitro finish of the K-Zoo Casino and in thirty years the Lennon Casinos will have that going for them.

 

I just get a sense that some have a real deep seeded discontent for the JL Rev. And for some reason during a JL Rev banter, Yoko's name almost always seems to be brought into it in a way, that's always associated with Yoko's hand being greased with tons of $$$$ from Epiphone/Gibson for putting out 2000 units of JL Casinos

My guess is that Yoke is worth about $900M at the moment...my guess is on we'll say, twenty five hundred units, her take (maybe 10% of list on 2500 units) is in the neighbourhood of $750K or four shopping trips with Sarah Palin so no, in Yoko dollars it's lunch money but I still don't think she'd turn down three quarters of a million bucks when all she has to do is sign her name. The problem is...and expect to see it from guys like McCartney too. Macca and Ringo and Yoko are getting up there in age and they need to make it while they can so expect to see a lot more in the way of endorsement deals that not so many years ago would have seemed to them to be beneath them. Not Yoko so much because I doin't think dignity ever entered into it for her...baby diapers? c'mon....I expect Paul and Ringo to be plugging just about anything to make hay while they still have a sun to shine. Ringo recently said he'll accept no more fan mail or sign any more autographs so expect him to be on the Home Shopping Network selling his autograph and any piece of sh!te he thinks he can make a buck on...same for Paulie but to a lesser degree...expect to see re-packaging and out-takes to start to appear and probably exclusively in online digital form since there is so little overhead and so much profit that way.

 

Let's get real for a second and think about how much money Yoko is worth ($600 mil). I'm 100% sure a person of Yoko's wealth is hardly looking at 2000 guitars as a way to bolster her financial status...... seriously:-s

See above.

 

You know I think the Lennon Casinos are very nice guitars and I'm certainly not knocking them but I wonder why, and you seem to be one of those such people, that some people have this need to inflate the worth of some things beyond reason? Why is it that having a really good guitar isn't enough for you? Why is that you want to go against reason to make it some how more than it is? Is it ego? Is it the same dynamic at work that makes those old crap guitars from the 60's now magically Holy Grail items? Please feel free to explain to me why you think the Lennon Casino is going to have a vintage collectible premium in the future...I mean besides that you own one and that's what you really hope will happen.

 

Nelson

[duane v]

[/i]

See above.

 

You know I think the Lennon Casinos are very nice guitars and I'm certainly not knocking them but I wonder why' date=' and you seem to be one of those such people, that some people have this need to inflate the worth of some things beyond reason? Why is it that having a really good guitar isn't enough for you? Why is that you want to go against reason to make it some how more than it is? Is it ego? Is it the same dynamic at work that makes those old crap guitars from the 60's now magically Holy Grail items? Please feel free to explain to me why you think the Lennon Casino is going to have a vintage collectible premium in the future...I mean besides that you own one and that's what you really hope will happen.[/b']

 

Nelson

 

Nelson,

 

Whether it's your intention, but you do knock the JL guitar, and some of the people that have one (namely me). And from reading your long-winded essays, it's my opinion it's nothing more than political rhetoric..... Though I must admit some over excitement on my part because I finally found one of the guitars I've always wanted. However, it appears to me you try to pass it off as some character flaw, especially for a guitar I paid only $700.

 

If ego was involved in my decision making, I would purchase a 1965 Casino for $5000 (will never happen), or even had paid $3000 for the JL Casino I currently have, (again, would never happen). I guess "ego" could be an element that drives one to purchase. But again I look at it from what one would want, and what they're willing to pay for it... nothing more.

 

Whether any of the instruments I have eventually become "collectibles," and since I'm not a "collector" it's really not important to me. Because by the time they become vintage instruments, I'll be food for maggots.

[jwl325]

The numbering and saga of these guitars is pretty interesting. I've speculated the numbers must have been applied randomly, as some owners of fairly high production numbers have owned their guitars for some time.

 

I have a friend who purchased a brand new 1965 Sunburst in Feb of this year, and received #1726. Conversely, I have a record of #1847, another Sunburst, sold on Ebay in Fall 2007. Bottom line, I don't know that sequence number necessarily correlates to date of manufacture.

 

I used to own #1522, a Revolution model. I sold it earlier this year, but still have one of the 1965 Sunburst "Refurbs" MF blew out last Fall.

 

I started tracking the serial numbers of these guitars out of curiosity when the controversy over how many of each model were actually made cropped up. It turned into a sort of a hobby now, I just kind of watch out for them on Ebay, CL, etc.. (FYI, there are several sets of matched numbers out there, pretty much confirming there are *at least* 1965 of each model being produced, contrary to Epi/Gibson's original claim and advertising).

 

Hope this helps--

 

Bill