bobbyswamp Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 My Epi LP is buzzing on the upper frets. In fact, when I fret some spots, the note is completely dampened. I've narrowed down where the strings are hitting. Has anyone ever used those fret leveling kits you can buy at eBay? I have tried raising the bridge to raise the string action, but the buzzing is still there. Besides, I like the low action I have settled on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchCassidy Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Search "jumbo frets" on this forum, where I think this was all discussed. Ebay fret leveling kit probably= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I have looked at them and I personally would not risk it. For one thing they are "universal". Epis have a 12" radius fretboard. That alone makes them suspect to me. On top of that, they are ment to be used "without removing strings". O.K. so once you level your frets....what?....you then remove the strings and recrown the frets and dress them? I too, am going to try my hand at fret leveling.......starting on an inexpensive guitar. To even start to feel confident about trying it, I have been researching it and the proper tools for the last month. Every thing I have read leads me to believe there is more to it than just running a piece of metal with sandpaper on it across the top of my frets. There is a lot of imformation on the net for fret leveling, using fret files, fret dressing and polishing....(many good luthier forums out there)..best advice I can give is to research it for a while and then deside for yourself. Check this out......http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=4127 (read comments between pictures carefully) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 On the upper frets.. look.. the neck will not bend above the 12/14th frets at all.. if that's your area here's a fix that works. First off.. straighten the neck using the truss rod.. get it as straight as you can.. no relief. now.. play each note up the board..plugged in, treble on amp up higher than normal.. you want to hear even the slightest noise against a higher fret.. use a sharpy or a dry marker and put a dot on the fret above the one you are playing. that's where the noise is.. when you're done, you'll have dots showing you high frets. take a credit card.. use it on three frets at a time.. underneath each string.. where the dots are.. see if you can get a rocking motion.. that helps you understand where it's just a tiny bit, or more. now.. lower your action a bit more.. and do the sharpy process again.. you should add a few more dots.. now.. connect the dots where they are side by side.. if there is a space in between with no dot. don't connect it. What you want to do is this.. use some 600 grit paper.. use anything flat.. doesn't have to be as wide as the neck.. loosen strings.. push aside or remove.. I've got a table leg I planed off perfectly flat.. no radius... and I use it now and then the idea is simply to take the sharpy ink off the top of the frets... you tape the paper to the flat 'tool'.. it should be six or seven inches long. and don't use a lot of pressure. just barely in fact.. the high frets marked with the sharpy will lose their dots..or lines.. the low frets will barely be touched LOOK don't use pressure ,use your eyes.. be patient.. repeat if necessary.. after you do this.. and hey.. do I have to tell you not to get shavings in your pups? mask them off. take precautions and have cleaning in mind for the metal dust you produce.. put strings back up to tune.. repeat! If you go very slow.. you wont hurt a thing.. if you use pressure and flatten the radius, yer dumb. If you use the paper, let it work.. and the ink.. the high frets will come right down.. If you just have this on upper frets.. don't do the whole neck.. you're already happy so leave it alone.. just do the area you are concerned with.. but do make the neck straight first, anyway. when you get the noise you want gone out of it.. mask each fret off.. and either use a crowning tool or file or something to round the top of the frets touched a bit.. just a bit.. then buff them up with a little steel wool.. very light touch on all of this.. You can't put fret material back on.. so if you have to do it three times... you wont screw it up. you just have to be patient. and develop a feel for it.. don't forget to bend the strings when you do the first markings. .. you should be able to pull a full step bend on any fret without a problem.. you don't have to do 1 1/2 or 2 step bends.. it'll work out if you just bend 1 step.. you want the dots above the fret you're using.. that's where it rattles. you'll usually see that a couple to three or four are actually high.. do it twice.. once at your action. once at your lower action.. when doing the dots and lines. screw it up at your own risk.. this is the way I taught myself before I ever learned a better way.. mother of invention and all that. I still will do a guitar this way.. because I don't even have to take it to the shop. I can do in while watching tv.. but then I've done a zillion both this way and the right way.. this works.. the danger is impatience, lack of vision, unclear thinking, clumsiness, pressure. etc. you only have to take a tiny amount off the top of any fret... you should have good enough light to see where the frets are touched. It works. It's cheap. It's pretty safe if you're not a klutz. It does not mess with your board radius and your guitar will not have the noise. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I have a question: What is the action now, measured at the 12th fret? Isn't it prudent to determine whether the action you're shooting for is reasonable in the first place? If it's not, all the leveling in the world isn't going to eliminate buzz. Also, what string guage are you using? I'm not trying to suggest that you don't know what you're doing - I think these facts are of interest to the rest of us who are learning about the intricacies of guitar setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyswamp Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Search "jumbo frets" on this forum' date=' where I think this was all discussed. Ebay fret leveling kit probably= [img']http://www.alliedkenco.com/catalog/images/HAND%20MEAT%20SAW.jpg[/img] Yeah, I figured this may be a common question by newbies. I'll give it look. Anyway, nice saw!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyswamp Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 I have looked at them and I personally would not risk it. For one thing they are "universal". Epis have a 12" radius fretboard. That alone makes them suspect to me. On top of that' date=' they are ment to be used "without removing strings".O.K. so once you level your frets....what?....you then remove the strings and recrown the frets and dress them? I too, am going to try my hand at fret leveling.......starting on an inexpensive guitar. To even start to feel confident about trying it, I have been researching it and the proper tools for the last month. Every thing I have read leads me to believe there is more to it than just running a piece of metal with sandpaper on it across the top of my frets. There is a lot of imformation on the net for fret leveling, using fret files, fret dressing and polishing....(many good luthier forums out there)..best advice I can give is to research it for a while and then deside for yourself. Check this out......http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=4127 (read comments between pictures carefully)[/quote'] Thanks! Maybe I will try it on one of my beater guitars first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyswamp Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 On the upper frets..look.. the neck will not bend above the 12/14th frets at all.. if that's your area here's a fix that works. First off.. straighten the neck using the truss rod.. get it as straight as you can.. no relief. now.. play each note up the board..plugged in' date=' treble on amp up higher than normal.. you want to hear even the slightest noise against a higher fret.. use a sharpy or a dry marker and put a dot on the fret above the one you are playing. that's where the noise is.. when you're done, you'll have dots showing you high frets. take a credit card.. use it on three frets at a time.. underneath each string.. where the dots are.. see if you can get a rocking motion.. that helps you understand where it's just a tiny bit, or more. now.. lower your action a bit more.. and do the sharpy process again.. you should add a few more dots.. now.. connect the dots where they are side by side.. if there is a space in between with no dot. don't connect it. What you want to do is this.. use some 600 grit paper.. use anything flat.. doesn't have to be as wide as the neck.. loosen strings.. push aside or remove.. I've got a table leg I planed off perfectly flat.. no radius... and I use it now and then the idea is simply to take the sharpy ink off the top of the frets... you tape the paper to the flat 'tool'.. it should be six or seven inches long. and don't use a lot of pressure. just barely in fact.. the high frets marked with the sharpy will lose their dots..or lines.. the low frets will barely be touched LOOK don't use pressure ,use your eyes.. be patient.. repeat if necessary.. after you do this.. and hey.. do I have to tell you not to get shavings in your pups? mask them off. take precautions and have cleaning in mind for the metal dust you produce.. put strings back up to tune.. repeat! If you go very slow.. you wont hurt a thing.. if you use pressure and flatten the radius, yer dumb. If you use the paper, let it work.. and the ink.. the high frets will come right down.. If you just have this on upper frets.. don't do the whole neck.. you're already happy so leave it alone.. just do the area you are concerned with.. but do make the neck straight first, anyway. when you get the noise you want gone out of it.. mask each fret off.. and either use a crowning tool or file or something to round the top of the frets touched a bit.. just a bit.. then buff them up with a little steel wool.. very light touch on all of this.. You can't put fret material back on.. so if you have to do it three times... you wont screw it up. you just have to be patient. and develop a feel for it.. don't forget to bend the strings when you do the first markings. .. you should be able to pull a full step bend on any fret without a problem.. you don't have to do 1 1/2 or 2 step bends.. it'll work out if you just bend 1 step.. you want the dots above the fret you're using.. that's where it rattles. you'll usually see that a couple to three or four are actually high.. do it twice.. once at your action. once at your lower action.. when doing the dots and lines. screw it up at your own risk.. this is the way I taught myself before I ever learned a better way.. mother of invention and all that. I still will do a guitar this way.. because I don't even have to take it to the shop. I can do in while watching tv.. but then I've done a zillion both this way and the right way.. this works.. the danger is impatience, lack of vision, unclear thinking, clumsiness, pressure. etc. you only have to take a tiny amount off the top of any fret... you should have good enough light to see where the frets are touched. It works. It's cheap. It's pretty safe if you're not a klutz. It does not mess with your board radius and your guitar will not have the noise. TWANG [/quote'] Twang, YOU ROCK! Thanks for the info, man. MINNESOTANS RULE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 just take it easy.. better to do twice than wrong once.. you can feel the curve, you know it's there.. so don't flatten anything out. if you just take off the mark.. you'll be good to go. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcooper830 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I like Twangs approach. It sounds like a very cautious and systematic procedure that should yield great results. I also want to say I use the Thomas-Ginex fret leveling kit sold on Ebay and I was very happy with it. It's kind of a crude method but it works pretty well. It takes a few times to get the feel for it, but once you do, you can get your action nice and low with no buzz. It levels, crowns, and polishes your frets. Although I found it's good to polish each fret individually afterward for the best results. I recommend it. It's only $25.00. And you can try it on a cheaper guitar so you can get the feel for it. http://www.fretrefinishing.com/ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arobatto Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Hi Bobbyswamp, Regardless of which method/technique you decide to use, I would highly recommend Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player Repair Guide : Dane Erlewine Even if you're not inclined to do the work, it makes good reading and will give you a better understanding about guitar technical and luthier work. Also, another great reference for repair, setup and all luthier stuff, look at Frets.com Frank Ford mostly works on acoustics, but the principles are the same. I've just finished refretting an old Kay archtop utilizing a good bit of the aforementioned resources. Good Luck! Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 I have looked at them and I personally would not risk it. For one thing they are "universal". Epis have a 12" radius fretboard. That alone makes them suspect to me. On top of that' date=' they are ment to be used "without removing strings".O.K. so once you level your frets....what?....you then remove the strings and recrown the frets and dress them? I too, am going to try my hand at fret leveling.......starting on an inexpensive guitar. To even start to feel confident about trying it, I have been researching it and the proper tools for the last month. Every thing I have read leads me to believe there is more to it than just running a piece of metal with sandpaper on it across the top of my frets. There is a lot of imformation on the net for fret leveling, using fret files, fret dressing and polishing....(many good luthier forums out there)..best advice I can give is to research it for a while and then deside for yourself. Check this out......http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=4127 (read comments between pictures carefully)[/quote'] I posted that tutorial. Thanks for finding it Whitmore Willy! I did a search and came up dry. TWANG, good info. The basic theory of a fret dressing is to first level the fretboard then dress all frets lightly to obtain a flat, level fretboard as a starting point for adjusting the neck relief. After doing a fret dressing, you have no high or low frets and you can create a slightly concavity in the neck that allows the string to vibrate without contacting a fret along its length. You have to be careful and not over sand the frets, as TWANG said. Once the neck is adjusted level with strings removed you can then mark all the frets with a black magic marker and then use a FLAT sanding block to lightly sand and remove all traces of magic marker. This works because the sanding block is contacting a number of frets at once, thus you only remove the high points. I like to apply masking tape on the fingerboard to prevent an accidental contact with the sanding block. Once the magic marker is removed by sanding, you should have a perfectly flat relationship between the frets, provided that you did a good job in adjusting the truss rod in step one to flatten it. Stewmac sells a tool that is basically a straight edge with slots cut out where the frets are. With this tool, you are reading the actual fingerboard and not the frets. A high fret can affect the flatness of the adjustment. Now you are ready to polish. #0000 steel wool does a good job of polishing and removing sanding scratches, but COVER YOUR PICKUPS so that flying steel wool particles don't end up stuck to the pole magnets!! Steel wool also is good for your fingerboard if done lightly. It smooths the fingerboard surface and makes bending that much easier. Polish until the frets are bright and shiny. This is the step that makes them shine like a new gold ring and makes bending feel like there is no resistance. You will enjoy that if you polish well. Pictures here... "Goldie Gets a Fret Dressing" http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=4127 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Strum Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=6092 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 yep.. you can use a flat sanding surface.. just remember not to make them level.. that is. level from side to side.. if there's one error that's common here it's that people put too much pressure on while sanding.. taking the rise out of the center of the frets.. if you have a radiused fretboard, you should have radiused frets. some fretboards are less radius than others.. probably a couple out there that are flat.. but epis aren't. so don't overdo on the pressure.. let the paper do the work.. watch the dry mark lines.. don't sand where you don't have buzz.. *of course it's ok to go above and below the marks.. the idea is not to have pressure there.. basically you'll just leave the very slightest mark on the frets that don't need sanding* think of this.. when I do it this way, using a bright light, I can, first time through, only see what is about half a stick pin of shine across the top of any fret. about 1/5th the width of the actual fret top. think of that width as depth.. see? if it's as wide as the fret.. then you've really taken off some metal and are probably going to be in trouble. If you have a Taylor, and you do a job on it as was done to mine.... you can also be a jackass, as were the official taylor luthiers who did mine. they used a radiused sanding block. they applied a lot of pressure. taylor uses high frets so that you can dig right in, like a sloppy inconsiderate jackasss, and not worry about your lack of touch. On my taylor the official taylor jerk face reduced the fret height by at least 50% just to take a few spots down that didn't require nearly that much be taken off. Consequently, he did three fret jobs at once. shortening the life of my frets, and pushing me inexorably toward a total refret much sooner than than was necessary. It's not about the amount you take off.. it's about the amount you leave on. Be nice to your guitar. use bright light. keep that sanding line thin thin thin. remember it's much much better to do it twice.. even three times.. than to go to far, screwing yourself and your guitar out of years of service. Also there's far less chance of you digging in and making a mistake which will require a fret to be replaced. always put the strings back on.. retune.. set your action how you like it.. use measurements intended for your brand and model.. then lower the strings just a bit.. and remark. by doing this you are compelling yourself to a higher standard. a slower pace. safety, and fine work will come from it. My little epi studio, as well as my lp100 and g31, both of which I sold, only required a very little bit of fretwork.. I did it just like this, in my living room! and all three quitars played great. However, that's all they required, epi does very well on their frets to start with. Other guitars are different, and may require, new or used, a better method. This isn't universal.. it's applicable only to certain fret conditions. Other problems may be present.. such as a badly seated fret, etc. So assess the problem correctly before you start, too. tWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Strum Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 So assess the problem correctly before you start' date=' too. tWANG[/quote'] Better yet, if at all possible, assess the guitar before you buy it. Although in this day of web purchases, that is obviously impossible. Enter the mom and pop shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 I can't even imagine what it would cost me to get an epi dealership. Wish I could. But I'd bet it takes a pretty large cash outlay .. certain number of products ordered.. to get one, and even then, they may be picky about who they let sell them. That being said, if there was one brand I'd be willing to enlarge my little shop for it would be Epis. The true mom and pops stores around me are not selling epis. they sell chinese things of indeterminate name and quality. Once in a while someone gives Peavey a shot.. they seem to go out of business every year or two.. then reopen with the same basic idea and a new owner. The established stores aren't really mom and pop. They're either franchises.. or larger stores that have been in business for a long time. and GC, of course. Most of the smaller stores just don't have the stock.. so you're compelled to go to GC or Schmidt or some local store that's really the same thing in every way. At least, that's how it seems to me. New shop in my little town. he has a whole bunch of guitars pressed right up against the glass windows.. in 8 degree minnesota weather. I haven't been in.. they all look like toys and copys though in the window. Maybe he's got something decent inside, I dunno. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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