Craftsmanship: Yesterday -vs- Today

[pohatu771]

Part of it comes down to what the management was thinking... for instance, the Gibson LG-0 model. It was introduced in 1959 (I believe) as a student-model guitar. For some reason, the bridges were often being replaced under warranty, so Gibson replaced them with plastic bolt-on bridges... they were easier to replace when they needed replacing. After a few years, they went back to using wood.

 

Now, forty years later, I just replaced my plastic bridge with one made from walnut... as has a large majority of plastic bridge (1964-1967?) LG-0 owners.

[WireWhipper]

 

I have to doubt the knowledge of anyone that would send a guitar back because they "wouldn't stay in tune".

 

That is just plain BS.

 

ANY guitar tech worth a dime could've fixed those guitars in a matter of minutes.

 

Just tellin' ya what I experienced. When I pay for a Gibson, I expect it to stay in tune. The setup didn't solve it, taking it back to the tech didn't solve it, so I took the guitars back to the store for a refund. I figure if I'm going to fork out the money for a Gibson I shouldn't have these types of problems. Neither of my American Strats have these issues.

 

Marx, you apparently know a lot about guitars. Should I start sending my Gibsons to you to be worked on?

 

Ah, I take all of it back, sorry. Now I remembered that the necks on both of them were cracked and/or falling off. So much for modern day craftsmanship.

[antwhi2001]

WW, I can say that both my Chinese Epis have functioned perfectly ok so far. I perceive them to be lower quality than older Samick Epis because of lots of little things, some of which aren't obvious unless you look inside :

 

1. Body cavities are roughly machined out and poorly finished. Not visible unless you take the covers off.

2. Pots are much flimsier. Function OK so far. Had to replace one because the slotted end snapped off when I changed knobs. Not a big deal if they work ok.

3. No washers on the insides of Pots etc; (Samick ones had grab washers to stop them working loose over time).

4. Lighter guage wires, especially the main earth.

5. Bridge and stopbar are a different alloy, about half the weight of the ones on my Samick Epi LP.

6. The pickup surrounds are made from a cheaper softer plastic which distorts quite easily if you over-tighten the screws.

 

None of these are big problems and you can still have a guitar which plays fine. When you put them all together though you can't help thinking that very effort is being made to turn out a cheap guitar. That's disappointing on a Custom Plus. On top of that, the black part of the binding seems to be printed rather than plastic, and is smudged in places. The recommended retail price on a Custom Plus in the UK is around £500/$1000. I'm not complaining because I only paid £275 / $550. If I'd paid full price I'd have sent it back.

 

As it is, I've put a Burstbucker Pro at the neck and a 15-16k Kossoff special at the bridge, sprague 22 caps. Sounds good, looks good, stays in tune. But I thought it was a good example of how the build quality of Epi LPs has changed between "S" prefix Korean and "EE" Chinese. I've owned 3 "S"s and 2 "EE"s now.....won't be buying another EE.

[Dave]

WW' date=' I can say that both my Chinese Epis have functioned perfectly ok so far. I perceive them to be lower quality than older Samick Epis because of lots of little things, some of which aren't obvious unless you look inside :

 

1. Body cavities are roughly machined out and poorly finished. Not visible unless you take the covers off.

2. Pots are much flimsier. Function OK so far. Had to replace one because the slotted end snapped off when I changed knobs. Not a big deal if they work ok.

3. No washers on the insides of Pots etc; (Samick ones had grab washers to stop them working loose over time).

4. Lighter guage wires, especially the main earth.

5. Bridge and stopbar are a different alloy, about half the weight of the ones on my Samick Epi LP.

6. The pickup surrounds are made from a cheaper softer plastic which distorts quite easily if you over-tighten the screws.

 

None of these are big problems and you can still have a guitar which plays fine. When you put them all together though you can't help thinking that very effort is being made to turn out a cheap guitar. That's disappointing on a Custom Plus. On top of that, the black part of the binding seems to be printed rather than plastic, and is smudged in places. The recommended retail price on a Custom Plus in the UK is around £500/$1000. I'm not complaining because I only paid £275 / $550. If I'd paid full price I'd have sent it back.

 

As it is, I've put a Burstbucker Pro at the neck and a 15-16k Kossoff special at the bridge, sprague 22 caps. Sounds good, looks good, stays in tune. But I thought it was a good example of how the build quality of Epi LPs has changed between "S" prefix Korean and "EE" Chinese. I've owned 3 "S"s and 2 "EE"s now.....won't be buying another EE.

 

[/quote']

 

Samick has manufactured some excellent guitars over the years, but the things you mentioned can be fixed at low cost, especially the plastic parts and the stopbar and bridge.

 

You have to consider that Chinese manufacturing has gotten better over the years. There's a learning curve with startups. I remember a time when Japanese products had a reputation for shoddy manufacturing and cheap, brittle plastic parts...look at them now.

 

Everyone wants to compare Gibsons and Epiphones because the form and function is the same. It's the price that draws us to the Epi and we are willing to accept the little differences because we usually don't plan on keeping the hardware, pickups, and in some cases the switch wiring left after changing the pickups. Once we have modded the guitar, most of the things you mentioned are moot points. Some of us would buy the body if we could and provide our own electronics, tuners, and bridge hardware.

 

The savings of $1500 to $2000 makes the Epi line extremely attractive. $250 and an afternoon of sweat equity can make the Epi very close to the $2500 Gibby if you are technically proficient, especially if you can do the fret dressing that most of them need.

 

I wish that I could by a new Chinese Mercedes for 1/5 of the retail price and mod it myself. So what if I had to spend $4000 to put in some new parts.

[antwhi2001]

Not looking for an argument Dave, but the points I described are not a learning curve issue. They illustrate a deliberate intention to manufacture at a lower cost than the Korean specs, by choosing to use cheaper materials and spend less time finishing surfaces which are not visible. I'm not blaming the Chinese in any way; they will be following instructions from Gibson "head office". Clearly they do already have the skills to produce better quality instruments if asked to. My point is that the current EE series LPs are being made to a lower spec than the 3 Samick-built Epis I owned, from 1999-2001 period. I'd agree that the differences are such that the average buyer of this sort of guitar won't notice.

 

Using the auto analogy, I'd also agree that I'd have loved to have just bought the "chassis" from Epi and installed my own engine and running gear. They do make a great chassis.

[Dave]

Woods are a factor as well as the design and craftsmanship of the instrument. There's nothing wrong with a robotic router cutting the shape and routing the cavities in a guitar as opposed to a line of experienced luthiers building the same guitar. Theoretically, if the programming is based on achieving the same end result, there should be no difference.

 

That said, what typically happens is that there are tolerances in the equipment that increase over time if the machines are not calibrated frequently enough. When a guitar is not checked and brought into spec by a luthier AFTER the fact, then defects will exit the factory. A case in point is fret height on new guitars. We constantly have someone posting that they can't lower the action without buzzing or that their new guitar buzzes at some point on the fingerboard. Both my epi LPs have had that problem, generally around the 8th to 15th frets and have required that I do a fret dressing to correct the problem. You still need human involvement to produce a great guitar.

[Ricochet]

I wish that "cheap chinese craftmanship" was available when I was starting out 25+ years ago...

[stan 58]

This is the golden age of nice affordable guitars & amps. And if you want to spend a ton, you can do that to! Stan.

[tulsaslim]

So many of the 'old school' guys badmouth CNC machines but I'm old enough to remember when all guitars were 'hand made'. And you'd be lucky if half of them played worth a damn. Say what you want about CNCs, it's what makes a $99 guitar play like a dream. (It might sound like crap, but the CNC necks allow for great playability).

[Guest alanhindle]

 

I agree with MarxBros' date=' what would cause a guitar to not stay in tune that couldn't be easily fixed?[/quote']

 

How about faulty tuners? OK it could be replaced, but would a new one exactly match the rest? I'd take back a new guitar with a faulty tuner for an exchange.

[Emetry]

I'm a fairly recent newcomer to the world of guitars. I'm a keyboardist, and a straight Korg one at that, so I've been used to paying quite a bit of cash for an instrument.

My one argument against guitars for a long time were high prices for equipment that never seemed to be agreed on as far as "quality" goes. I'm referencing the very argument happening here. Is it better to spend loads on a "vintage" guitar, or still loads, but slightly less on newer ones? Which is better? Technology or "craftsmanship".

 

Since I've started playing (and again, I'll censure myself and say, it hasn't been a LONG time, about a year now) I've had the opportunities to play a HUGE range of guitars from antiquated Kalamazoo Guitars models to my newer SG (Quindao made, btw, and I love it).

 

The way I've seen it, there are always flaws in the guitars, especially the "vintage" ones, but it's the manner that it affects the overall tone of the guitar that makes it a good or bad one.

Personally, I don't mind that I have a Quingdao made Epi. It plays fine and sounds good. I compare it to my Samick LP and they're almost on the same level.

Granted, I might not have the encyclopedic knowledge or high tastes that some of you have, and I'm sure I'm "wrong" but as a newer player, and one that has become passionate about the instruments, it's it the opinions of myself and my peers that determines the "good/bad" of the craftsmanship? Especially for Epis? If they didn't work or sound good except for every once in a while, they'd alter the manufacturing because nobody would buy them.

 

If you really want a handmade American made guitar, buy one. Nobody forces you to buy the Epis from China.

[leicester35]

I'm a fairly recent newcomer to the world of guitars. I'm a keyboardist' date=' and a straight Korg one at that, so I've been used to paying quite a bit of cash for an instrument.

My one argument against guitars for a long time were high prices for equipment that never seemed to be agreed on as far as "quality" goes. I'm referencing the very argument happening here. Is it better to spend loads on a "vintage" guitar, or still loads, but slightly less on newer ones? Which is better? Technology or "craftsmanship".

 

Since I've started playing (and again, I'll censure myself and say, it hasn't been a LONG time, about a year now) I've had the opportunities to play a HUGE range of guitars from antiquated Kalamazoo Guitars models to my newer SG (Quindao made, btw, and I love it).

 

The way I've seen it, there are always flaws in the guitars, especially the "vintage" ones, but it's the manner that it affects the overall tone of the guitar that makes it a good or bad one.

Personally, I don't mind that I have a Quingdao made Epi. It plays fine and sounds good. I compare it to my Samick LP and they're almost on the same level.

Granted, I might not have the encyclopedic knowledge or high tastes that some of you have, and I'm sure I'm "wrong" but as a newer player, and one that has become passionate about the instruments, it's it the opinions of myself and my peers that determines the "good/bad" of the craftsmanship? Especially for Epis? If they didn't work or sound good except for every once in a while, they'd alter the manufacturing because nobody would buy them.

 

If you really want a handmade American made guitar, buy one. Nobody forces you to buy the Epis from China.[/quote']

 

Have to say....I agree with you.

 

There's a vast amount of bullsh*t talked about vintage guitars. In the past, I've endured tedious conversations with bearded know-it-alls, who explained to me in painstaking detail exactly why my 1990s American Standard Telecaster shouldn't be described as a "real" Telecaster, and so on and so forth. People of that type are near cousins to real ale purists, and trainspotters who count the number of rivets on the sides of diesel locomotives.

 

A good guitar is a good guitar, doesn't matter whether it was made in 1959, 1968, 1998, or 2008. A good guitar can be made in California, or Nashville, or Baja California, or Qingdao, and all points in between. A good guitar is a good guitar for your purposes. I once had the pleasure of watching a superb blues guitarist playing in a semi-pro band. For most of the gig he was using a high-end Stratocaster (a '57 reissue, I think). For the last number he pulled out a crappy Danelectro. And still sounded amazing.

 

Every interest attracts gear fascination. I guarantee you that right now some wealthy businessman is teeing off with a $750 driver, and hitting his ball 50 yards, bouncing along the ground all the way to the nearest sand-trap. Some other bloke will be hitting perfect drives with something he bought from Wal-Mart for $50. Both of them will talk about golf clubs in the bar afterwards. That's the way it is.

 

Buy want you want, play what you want. If you don't like what you have, then sell it and buy something else...

[Goldie]

I wish that "cheap chinese craftmanship" was available when I was starting out 25+ years ago...

 

Ya, you should have seen what they were like 40+ years ago!

[Ron G]

Ya' date=' you should have seen what they were like 40+ years ago! [/quote']

How twue. When I was 15, I worked every Saturday and Sunday night as a busboy,

for six months, to buy my first good guitar, an ES-330. Then, we pretty much had the

following choices: Gibson, Fender, Gretsch, Guild and junk.

[WireWhipper]

 

How about faulty tuners? OK it could be replaced' date=' but would a new one exactly match the rest? I'd take back a new guitar with a faulty tuner for an exchange.[/quote']

 

I have no doubt that it was probably something like tuners or a nut on both guitars. The sunburst LP Classic I bought used at GC about 5 years ago. After taking it to the shop twice (once for setup, once for tuning issues) I decided to take it back to the store for a refund after two weeks. Since it was used I couldn't make an even exchange, so I got my money back, saved up some more gig money, and bought a new gold top LP Classic online, which has been an excellent playing and sounding guitar. The SG Classic I picked up @ GC back in March, and I took it in for a setup and still noticed it was constantly needing retuning. For the first few days I chalked it up to new strings needing stretching, but I would tune the guitar before putting it in its case (stored in my temp and humidity-controlled living room), and the next day I would pick it up again, only to find that several strings would always be out of tune - sometimes a bit sharp, which I thought was strange. Again I took it back to my local shop for these issues. Again they refiled the nut, tightened the tuner bushings, rewound the strings on the posts using the "lock" technique to prevent slippage on the post, checked the saddles etc. but the tuning problems persisted so I took it back. They didn't have one in stock to exchange so I got a refund.

 

Who knows what the issues were. I could point fingers at the shop where I took it for a setup, but the place is very reputable and is a authorized Gibson repair/warranty center, plus the tuning issues arose before taking the guitars in for setups. The guy at GC said the cheap white-button tuners were likely to blame on the SG, and my tech at the guitar shop said that the neck could have possibly been set poorly. Or the nut could have been bad also. I had just run out of patience with both guitars, and didn't feel I needed to spend any more money on them considering how much I had already paid for them, and didn't feel like going thru the hassle of making a warranty claim. Or it could have been that the guitars had been handled by hundreds of people, dropped on the ground, and banged into countless other guitars at GC before I bought them, too. Like many, I'm less willing to put money into a more expensive guitar because I have high expectations for them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming Gibson (I love my gold top LP Classic!), just driving home my original point that with any mass-produced product, regardless of perceived quality, there are always going to be issues with some of the products.

[snookelputz]

The last couple of "won't stay in tune" that I heard about were caused by bridge/stoptail post holes too big and/or elongated allowing shift under hard bending and strumming.