Guest alanhindle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 You can go and check out these sites (SITE 1) and (SITE 2)..These sellers sell fake Gibsons' date=' Fenders, Takamine, Epiphones, and so many other Brands and they still refer them as "real Gibsons and Epiphones". now no one would believe that but wouldn't that be illegal to sell it as Authentic, but hey thats China "The Communist Country" they don't give a damn to any Copyright, Patent, Trademark or any other intellectual property and no one can do anything about it.If you sell it as a fake, as GZ said it'll go from 300-400$ depending upon it's quality, but when that comes to the local market/Internet as an authentic product and selling for $1500+ and more shouldn't some action be taken to stop them ?? There aren't many people who buy fake, the ones who buy them are either buying to check how they really are (I once wanted to buy one, but have changed my mind) and the others are illegal sellers who sell them as Authentic to innocent buyers who, get ripped off big time. but honestly these sellers/manufacturers should be stopped in someway. Are Gibson, Fender and other brands taking any actions...??[/quote'] When I first saw these sites, I thought that I must be wrong- people actually will go to immense lengths to produce fakes that look that convincing. However, then I started looking closer at the guitars on Site 1 and put myself in the crook's shoes. I concluded that if I was a fraudster in China selling fake Gibson Les Pauls, I would post pictures of genuine Les Pauls on my site and then send out crap ones to the mug half way round the world who has no comeback. Looking closely, wouldn't you agree that this Heritage Cherryburst LP on Ayush's site 1 is actually real? (Click on 'view original picture' hyperlink to get a larger version of each thumbnail). To me, it looks much much better than a genuine Epi LP Standard Plus which, also being made in China in a super-dooper guitar plant, sells for more in the US than the $378 asking price on Site 1. Just look at the wood grain, the finish, the binding, the headstock detail, the nut etc. Surely that's a genuine Gibby. Obviously for $378, it's not what the buyer will get. Nobody can produce anything which looks anywhere near as good as the one in that picture in a backstreet operation in China for $378, when a genuine Chinese Epi manufactured in a state-of-the-art Gibson owned plant looks inferior. To prove my point, look at this 58 LP Custom on the same site. Clicking and expanding the last thumbnail on the right you can clearly see that they have fogged out the Gibson logo. They're not even advertising this $111.93 purchase as a Gibson, so you probably won't even get their half baked attempt at a forgery if you spend this little cash. My conclusion: I still think the original poster's black custom is a real Epi because the one in his photos just looks so good. In fact, at the start of the thread, people were saying it was genuine. It was only when somebody mentioned the thickness of the Epi logo E that doubts started to be raised and we've already established that the logo and diamond can vary from plant to plant (Sweetwater vs Thomann example). I think his low res, foggy photos are the reason why the headstock detail looks off. If he posts a good, high resolution picture in natural light and the Epi logo and serial number still look foggy I will then concede that it's a fake but until then, because of the variability in headstock detail on Epis from plant to plant and the look of the guitar on all his other photos, I think it's real. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelodyMaker1 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 That's the game dude, the old bait and switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelodyMaker1 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 My conclusion: I still think the original poster's black custom is a real Epi because the one in his photos just looks so good. In fact' date=' at the start of the thread, people were saying it was genuine. It was only when somebody mentioned the thickness of the Epi logo E that doubts started to be raised and we've already established that the logo and diamond can vary from plant to plant (Sweetwater vs Thomann example). I think his low res, foggy photos are the reason why the headstock detail looks off. If he posts a good, high resolution picture in natural light and the Epi logo and serial number still look foggy I will then concede that it's a fake but until then, because of the variability in headstock detail on Epis from plant to plant and the look of the guitar on all his other photos, I think it's real. Alan [/quote'] Man you just won't give it up, will you? That guitar is Fake..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alanhindle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Man you just won't give it up' date=' will you? [b']That[/b] guitar is Fake..... You're right mate! I've got a real bee in my bonnet about this. If you look at the MZonline thread, the consensus is that AntWhi2001's custom is genuine and it came from the same source as this black custom. I'll be happy to admit defeat if a better photo still shows poor headstock detail though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 If you look at the MZonline thread' date=' the consensus is that AntWhi2001's custom is genuine.. ..[/quote'] 1 does not a consensus make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 The site I was looking at (with the 1975) doesn't actually claim that they're Gibsons... they call them Gibsons, but they also admit that they're made in China. Somehow, I never considered that they posted pictures of real Gibsons... I suppose we'll have to wait a week to get some better pictures of the original guitar we were discussing. I'm anxious - I can't imagine what the owner is feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alanhindle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 The site I was looking at (with the 1975) doesn't actually claim that they're Gibsons... they call them Gibsons' date=' but they also admit that they're made in China. Somehow, I never considered that they posted pictures of real Gibsons... I suppose we'll have to wait a week to get some better pictures of the original guitar we were discussing. I'm anxious - I can't imagine what the owner is feeling.[/quote'] You're anxious, I'm Sh****ng myself! I'm going to end up looking like a right di*k! Where's he gone by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 You're anxious' date=' I'm Sh****ng myself! I'm going to end up looking like a right di*k! Where's he gone by the way?[/quote']I wondered the same thing... I get the feeling he started the thread looking for an overwhelming "YES," and then when people started to think it wasn't real, he didn't want to hear it. I can't blame him. I'd be pretty upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Look at these photos from Sweetwater. They're from the gallery, meaning they're pics of the actual guitar. Compare to the OP's pics above. Comparing pics of the back of the headstock, not only are the bottom tuners crooked, their placement in the headstock isn't the same. The serial number indicates a manufacture date of April 2006 - not definitive, as there is old stock around - but still suspicious. The guitar is a counterfeit, unfortunately. http://www.sweetwater.com/guitargallery/electric/all/sEE080501462/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alanhindle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 1 does not a consensus make. Thanks Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alanhindle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Look at these photos from Sweetwater. They're from the gallery' date=' meaning they're picsof the actual guitar. Comparing pics of the back of the headstock, not only are the bottom tuners crooked, their placement in the headstock isn't the same. The serial number indicates a manufacture date of April 2006 - not definitive, as there is old stock around - but still suspicious. The guitar is a counterfeit, unfortunately. http://www.sweetwater.com/guitargallery/electric/all/sEE080501462/[/quote'] Guitar dater for that serial number states: Your guitar was made at the Qingdao Plant (Epiphone), China May 2008 Production Number: 01462 Also, bad tuner positioning means badly drilled hole and poor QA. It shouldn't have got through. It's Sweetwater's picture (has their name on it for copywright) so they must either have it for sale or have already sold it. If your assertion was true this would have massive ramifications for the American guitar buying public. It would imply that all their other guitars including the Gibsons could be fakes too. I still say a fake guitar is 99.9% likely to be an obvious fake, whatever the brand. We're not talking about priceless paintings here. That level of forgery is simply not worth it for a guitar worth a few hundred bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 alanhindle: I was referring to the OP's guitar vs. Sweetwater's guitar (sigh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 For your reading enjoyment: http://www.vintagerock.com/fakeguitars.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I still say a fake guitar is 99.9% likely to be an obvious fake' date=' whatever the brand. We're not talking about priceless paintings here. That level of forgery is simply not worth it for a guitar worth a few hundred bucks.[/quote']So, explain Rolex watch knock-offs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alanhindle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 alanhindle: I was referring to the OP's guitar vs. Sweetwater's guitar (sigh) OK I misinterpreted what you said there. However' date=' on the matter of Renegade's last picture of the back of the headstock, I disagree that the tuners are out on his guitar. If you look at all his photos on page 1 of the thread, you'll see they are all taken from an angle to the left and from above. Secondly, if you look at the headstock rear shot, a good bit of the gold you see at the top of each grover is actually reflection on to the black finish caused by the flash shining from above and to the left. This has made the bottom tuners, in particular, appear twisted. Thirdly, you'll see that there are scratches all over the middle of his camera which appear as streaks which may further distort the image. I would say the photo was taken on a camera phone which has been in and out of his pocket quite a bit. Lastly, if you look at the sweetwater pic, the grovers on this aren't perfectly symetrical either. This shot looks to have been taken slightly from the left too. However, my conclusion is that it is the angle of the shot, coupled with the flash reflecting gold on to black that is giving the tuners on Renegade's LP the appearance of being twisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alanhindle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 So' date=' explain Rolex watch knock-offs[/quote'] 1. They're obvious fakes 2. People know full well that they're fakes when they buy one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I still say a fake guitar is 99.9% likely to be an obvious fake' date=' whatever the brand. We're not talking about priceless paintings here. That level of forgery is simply not worth it for a guitar worth a few hundred bucks. [/quote']It IS an obvious fake to people who know how to spot them. You are not one of those people however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alanhindle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 It IS an obvious fake to people who know how to spot them. You are not one of those people however. Well come up with some sound basis in fact to prove it. I pick up and play an Epi Les Paul every day so I would hope I know what one looks like. I think I've explained the distorted appearance of the tuners and you yourself confirmed the variability in headstock markings between plants in response to the photos I posted of sweetwater vs. Thomann. Logic would dictate that the effort required to produce a convincing fake epiphone in a backstreet factory in China would cost far more than it would to make in the well equipped EE factory with large numbers of staff performing specific tasks on a production line, under Gibson's overall control. Oh, and we've also shown how the real fraudsters post pictures of the genuine guitars on their sites but sell them for no more than 20% of the price of the real one, unlike Renegade's which was advertised at about 75-80% of the usual price you can buy them for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Well come up with some sound basis in fact to prove it. I pick up and play an Epi Les Paul every day so I would hope I know what one looks like. I think I've explained the distorted appearance of the tuners and you yourself confirmed the variability in headstock markings between plants in response to the photos I posted of sweetwater vs. Thomann. Logic would dictate that the effort required to produce a convincing fake epiphone in a backstreet factory in China would cost far more than it would to make in the well equipped EE factory with large numbers of staff performing specific tasks on a production line' date=' under Gibson's overall control. Oh, and we've also shown how the real fraudsters post pictures of the genuine guitars on their sites but sell them for no more than 20% of the price of the real one, unlike Renegade's which was advertised at about 75-80% of the usual price you can buy them for.[/quote']You really have no clue to what you are talking about. There are countless fake Epis being sold that at first blush look to be real, this is one of them, the headstock has far to many issues to be real. I've never seen a real Epi look that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 OK, one more thing. A true story that might give you some insight into product counterfeiting: About a year ago, I bought 16 (2 8-packs) Gillette Mach III razor blades on eBay. When I used the first one, I knew something was very wrong. It was as dull as a month-old blade. The package was perfect - the same fancy foiled cardboard, same lettering, same "Made in USA", same everything. The blades themselves were identical to the real thing in every way, except for 1 tiny detail - the "Gillette" logo wasn't molded into the plastic. I then Googled "counterfeit razor blades" and found that hundreds of thousands of these rather expensive items (Fusion blades, too) are made in China and sold to unwitting people all over the world. We're talking razor blades, perfect looking copies of razor blades. I think anything is possible. Not only possible but probable.(click for article) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 OK' date=' one more thing. A true story that might give you some insight into product counterfeiting: About a year ago, I bought 16 (2 8-packs) Gillette Mach III razor blades on eBay. When I used the first one, I knew something was very wrong. It was as dull as a month-old blade. The package was perfect - the same fancy foiled cardboard, same lettering, same "Made in USA", same everything. The blades themselves were identical to the real thing in every way, except for 1 tiny detail - the "Gillette" logo wasn't molded into the plastic. I then Googled "counterfeit razor blades" and found that hundreds of thousands of these rather expensive items (Fusion blades, too) are made in China and sold to unwitting people all over the world. We're talking [i']razor blades[/i], perfect looking copies of razor blades. I think anything is possible. Not only possible but probable. Popular brand counterfeiting is becoming a HUGE issue for simple consumer goods. Anyone who thinks this Epi is real is just one more of the suckers that have been drawn in. The suspect seller is the first red flag, the price the second, the headstock problems confirm it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 As I said pages ago, the angle isn't bothering me. Things that I find to be wrong aren't caused by an angle- they're size issues. As far as the tuners go, if one looks wrong because of the angle of the shot, they should all look wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generation zero Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I found this Gibson online, do you think it might be fake? http://www.ioffer.com/i/%C2%A0Gibson-beautiful-music-tool-electric-guitar-82201586 Also... I am pretty sure this one is real, I just want to get you guys' opinion before I buy... http://www.ioffer.com/i/free-shipping-new-Gibson-electric-guitar-with-the-case--70027311 If that one turns out to be a fake, I'll buy this one instead: http://www.ioffer.com/i/Gibson-zakk-wydle-fly-V-guitar-88268696 :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I found this Gibson online' date=' do you think it might be fake? http://www.ioffer.com/i/%C2%A0Gibson-beautiful-music-tool-electric-guitar-82201586 Also... I am pretty sure this one is real, I just want to get you guys' opinion before I buy... http://www.ioffer.com/i/free-shipping-new-Gibson-electric-guitar-with-the-case--70027311 If that one turns out to be a fake, I'll buy this one instead: http://www.ioffer.com/i/Gibson-zakk-wydle-fly-V-guitar-88268696 :D [/quote']I really hope you are kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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