TWANG Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Some bridges have smaller bushings. so you have to replace the existing bushing with a dowel. a piece of round wood that fits in the old hole, so you can drill a new hole in it for the new bridge bushing. In this case, for a Schaller bridge, replacing an epiphone bushing. Starting with a piece of mahogany. cut it down to approximate size. put some serrations in to fit better in the old hole. Nice and tight. This one is not done, needs the cap resized and thinned down a bit. the end that goes into the guitar doesn't have to match the orignal bushing, pictured. Don't glue them in.. and you can file them down a bit if too fat.. then redrill for correct spacing of the new bushing. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbbysB4Epis Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Best of luck to you and all of you that try this approach to replacing a bridge to which you cannot find superior after market products to replace the OEM equipment on Epi's. You are better off getting the actual dimensions for the post spacing, buy a bridge that has the nearest spacing equivalent with smaller holes, and find a small machine shop that does custom work and have them modify the bridge to your specifications. I have already been here and done this with my Dot Studio. Stop and think about it, if you screw up the bridge then you are out what the bridge costs and labor time. If you screw up plugging holes in your guitar then it will be forever damaged to the point even a qualified luthier may tell you to just buy a new guitar. When a guitar body is machined out, the bridge post holes are put in at the same time the neck pocket is cut so the spacing and location is the CNC machining program. At machining time there is no concern about proper alignment because everything is machined in place and the holes will be perpendicular to the neck pocket. A finished Sheraton has an arched backside so you really haven't any way to safely hold (secure) the guitar. So unless you have tools and the knowledge to undertake such a task don't do it! This is my only gripe about Epiphone...finding quality aftermarket hardware to replace the OEM junk is difficult...just ask TWANG. If a quality replacement bridge was available he wouldn't be doing this. Ibanez and Gibson Post Spacing: 2.910" with a Ø.249" hole Epi Dot Studio: 2.886" with Ø .246" hole. Epi Sheraton II: 2.830" with Ø.250" hole These dimension came directly from the bridges while I had them off while replacing strings. Oh, and BTW I am a 30+ year experienced tool room and CNC production machinist. And now I am a Quality Control Inspector. I did my own work so I know what I am writing about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i hate classical music Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 replacing a bridge isn't that hard is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 I think you miss the point. The schaller bridge has smaller bushings than the stock epi. There's no way to screw up the guitar here. All that's happening is the large metal bushing is replaced by a wooden bushing. Want to see a pic of mine? It works perfectly and was easy as pie. I had to put dowels in both the bridge and tailpiece holes. That in order to mount the bigsby, which didn't match up with the tailpiece holes. and to mount the schaller roller bridge, which had smaller bushings than the stock epi bridge. In this case I did one better. I copied the bushings with serrations instead of using a round dowel. Will fit much better. How on earth could anyone screw up the holes? You're talking out your hole, my friend, I'm sorry to be so frank. Secure the guitar for what? What the heck are you talking about? You remove the bushings. you put the wooden dowel, and exact copy of the bushing you just took out, in. you drill the new hole. is that it? you think the guitar can't be held securely for drilling a hole in the new wooden dowel/bushing? You really believe that's a difficult thing to do? Seriously? The tools required are a drill bit, and a drill. Look at my pics. My guitar works perfectly. Looks good. You know, I understand that people are afraid of doing their own work. Some should be. I understand that people who pay a lot to have work done naturally want to believe that it was worth every cent, or that nobody else can do it either. I understand that some people are friends of luthiers and hate to see them lose money when people learn to do things themselves. What I can't understand is why you think someone can't put a round peg in a round hole without ruining their guitar. The hardest part of this is drilling two holes without dropping the drill on the guitar. I have a monkey that can do that. Ok, maybe the hardest part is centering the holes in the right place. Sheesh.. you know they have this invention, it's called a ruler. The center point of the dowel is the center point of the hole. You know.. just the way it was made in the first place by the great sacred CNC machine? The schaller roller bridge has another feature, that will fix any tiny thing that is off.. saddles that adjust left and right. A string, from tail to tuner.. over the saddle before the dowel has been drilled for the new bushing.. will tell you exactly where the holes should be drilled.. even without a ruler. All you'd do is put the saddle in place without posts.. put on both E strings.. get the string spacing right as you normally would.. then mark the holes through the bridge saddle post holes which are over the bare dowels. Lord have mercy, that's so simple it's mind boggling. If you have a choice in bridges, and you choose the schaller, you can use it. You don't have to switch brands, or models or types. You can do this on any guitar. With no lloss of tone, and no sacrifice of looks and for crying out loud, certainly without ruining your guitar. Unless you happen to be inexperienced with simple tools like a drill.. or your eyes. I'm sorry I was harsh earlier. I beg your pardon for that talking out your hole remark. I'd take it out, but I'm too lazy, so please just forgive me. Here's some pics. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 I resized those.. and they came out the same size? What's up with that? guitars I know.. photobucket seems to be eluding me. I'll try again.. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 pay a machine shop to modify the bridge. *L* I'm sorry that one slipped by me. pay money to have done in metal what you can do with a simple round piece of hardwood? I did a set of these serrated dowels for a guy for free. So he'd have better than I have, which as you can see was just round dowels. And works fine. and posed no threat whatsoever. I don't mean to start an argument, though. Let's go through this and see where it is you think the problem is. The worst thing about mine. If you screw the bridge post in all the way, and keep turning it, one of the dowels will start to turn. But then, you're not supposed to keep turning it if it's all the way down so.. that hasn't been any kind of problem for me. The set I made wont allow that to happen, and they also fill the hole better. That's why I did it this way. I often do stuff for myself that's not as good as I do for other people. honestly, all that has to be done is mark the dowels with the bridge on and two strings halfway tight, drill them and put in the new bushing. Nothing will be compromised. as far as parts choices go, there are good bridges out there that aren't exact replacements, that are preferred by people for features and looks they want. Nothing wrong with that. Hey, ever see that new EVH frankenstien.. something like ten grand and the pickup has a tendency to fall out, and it's covered with cigarette burns? I'm happy with my schaller. Perfect for the bigs, that's for sure. Maybe I've been a bit harsh in all of this.. since I just got these done and as usual I get excited about doing something with guitars and having it work out neat. I don't mean to sound so grumpy. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbbysB4Epis Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I resized those.. and they came out the same size?What's up with that? TWANG Wood! it sounds easy and looks easy but as you found out it not that easy. TWANG, I'm not arguing with you on this matter, this is your choice. You seem to be a nice guy wanting to help other member with projects, I'm just cautioning about the ramifications of what may happen if your don't do it right the first time. You have only one shot at this so there is no margin for error. Although a guitar is made of wood it is still a precision instrument. I'm willing to bet Dan Erlewine isn't going to use hand tools to make this modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 On my Epi Les Pauls, I guess I was lucky. When I installed a Gotoh replacement bridge, all I had to do was use the original posts along with the new bridge. Everything fit fine and there were no problems. I think that Twang has an idea that would work for some and others would ruin their guitar if they tried it. After all, to drill a perfectly perpendicular hole you need a drill press. You'd need a huge one for this job...with a jig to hold the back of the guitar 90 degrees to the drill. The other option is to do it manually with a drill and hope that you have a calibrated eye. I have plug cutters for my drill press in the standard SAE sizes 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and the plugs would need to be whittled down to the metric size to work. You could drill the hole BEFORE cutting the plug and THEN size the exterior on a sander. Having the hole drilled first and micing the old stud and using that dimension to size the plug would prevent the drilling process from having to be done on the guitar. I'm pretty good with shop tools and I wouldn't trust my self to drill the plug with a hand drill in the guitar. I'd rather screw it up outside and start over than take that chance. Now, in Twang's defense this is not a dimension that would be that critical. The undersize of the aftermarket bridge posts is such that you only need a small shim to achieve a tight fit. If you had to use the aftermarket posts, I think that a copper or brass shim inserted into the hole or pressed around the replacement post would still provide energy transfer and achieve the tight fit that is needed. The ideal bushing here would be cut from a thinwall pipe and applied to the stud before inserting. Another approach would be to insert the pipe shim and tap the post into it, allowing the grooves in the stud to conform the insert. After all, we are looking to provide the same geometric relationship of the post in the hole and provide good contact for string energy transfer so that sustain and tone is maintained. The stud is metal inserted into the wooden body. A tubular shim made of soft metal could be the bushing you need and would provide an easy fix. Finding that thinwall tube in the right size is the challenge. In my line of work, some of the equipment I repair has thinwall brass sleeves that slide over a roller shaft and fit into the frame, acting as a bearing. These are thin enough if the outside dimension were correct. Micing the old post and the new post would provide a starting point for determining the thickness and diameter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Dave, I was talking about resizing the pics. I don't care what tools dan erlewine uses. The end result is what counts. And that result would be the same.. A dowel. A simple dowel. There is no way to 'ruin the guitar'. I don't even know why your'e saying that. And neither do you. All you do is put the dowel in. You can take it out anytime you want. You use Dans name, and you don't even know. You'd just 'bet'. You say a drill press is needed to drill a 'perfectly perpindicular hole'.. and that's another bit of BS. If that's true, then why does mine fit just right? You can't answer that. I did this. That's the problem. You believe you can't, so you think I can't. These are dowels made to copy metric bushings. They go right in. This complicated way you have created in your mind for every step of the process isn't necessary. You wouldn't trust yourself, but you're pretty good with hand tools. What happened to needing a qualified luthier? Wouldn't you need one to make this decision? This is a tight fit. No shim needed. The energy transfer that is needed? You have no idea how hard I'm laughing right now. You don't need a piece of pipe. the bushing is metal. it goes into wood. the wood is mahogany. the dowel is mahogany. the dowel has serrated edges that fit like the original bushing. the energy transfer is no different from the new metal bushing to the new dowel than it was to start with. I posted pics for crying out loud.. that show you that mine fits, and I guess you'll have to trust me about it sounding good. I certainly can't hear any loss of tone or volume and if I had, I would have said so right here. Your whole argument is two things: saying I did it wrong because I'm not Dan Erlwine.. and then carping on made up perfectionism balanced against fear of the job. Well, I've been building strats and teles and p and j basses for the last three years. I've been doing repairs and modifications that long. I realize that wont give me dans experience, and I also know he'd probably do this differently. None of that means this is wrong. I used hand tools.. so what? Stradivarius did, too, as I recall. It's a piece of wood. There's not going to be any 'perfect' fit here.. even by a CNC machine, if one were goofy enough to program a machine to do a job as simple as this. I'm sorry, but you're just blowing smoke. And not even in a consistent direction for any reasonable purpose. Are you telling me that a dowel that fits the hole doesn't really fit the hole because you don't like my method? Are you telling me that expensive metal work has to be added to the bushing hole in order to put in a different sized bushing? The new bushing I put in my lp actually turns the dowel. That's how tight the bushing is in the wood. On MY guitar I didn't bother to do the serrations on the edge of the dowel. It had NO effect save for allowing the dowel to turn if you applied unnecessary and great turning pressure on the posts. In short, no effect on tone. No effect on performance. I just haven't taken the time to do it differently on my own guitar. I know the drill here.. fear. using bogus technical argument to create fear. making this seem like rocket science, when all it is is fitting a plug into a hole. Pretending that there is some level of perfection that's unattainable by anyone less than one of the most well known luthiers in the country. If you or anyone else in here truly believes that their bushings fit 'perfectly' into the holes these chinese guys drilled into thier guitar, then I feel sorry for you. As a matter of FACT the bushings in my epiphone sheraton could be pulled out by the posts. that's how sloppy a job they did there, which I had to fix. If you want perfection, or something close to it, my recommendation is that you learn to dismantle your guitar, because that's the only way you're going to know where they made errors. You achieve all that is needed with this modification. I don't need to bet. I KNOW that you wouldn't know the difference between your own guitar and this mod, and your guitar as it is now, as regards tone volume and sustain. And neither will the person I made the dowels for. Sheesh. Dowels. So hard! TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highxj Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Guys, I think there may be a simple misunderstanding here if I'm reading this correctly. All TWANG is doing is essentially sleeving the bushing holes in the guitar. The spacing is the same, and he is simply filling the holes and redrilling through the fabricated bushings at the original centerline, leaving the guitar unaltered. Correct TWANG? I think the other poster reads that you are plugging the holes and drilling *new* holes in a different location, which would be a bit trickier. Having a metal lathe in my garage, I would just whip up some custom bushings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 highxj yep. that's the whole thing. put in a nice fitting dowel, drill the new bushing hole, put in the bushing. same location. the only thing you have to do is put the bridge in, tighten the two e strings over it, mark the hole and drill straight. By the way, with this schaller bridge, that hole is about half an inch. wrap tape around your drill bit, 1/2 inch up from end, and drill until the tape brushes away the wood it draws out. fit the bushing. As I said worked on mine. And by the way, I pulled my lp bridge off, removed the schaller bridge, pulled the bushings out, removed the dowels I had in it and matched the new dowels shown in this thread. The end result was that the new dowels go in just as far, easily, as the old bushings did.. IOW they went in about half way then started to get tighter just as the orignal bushings did. that means, as I said, the new dowels will in fact be as well if not better fit to the holes than the original bushing. solid as can be. great energy transfer was brought up, but what we're talking about here is not energy transfer as in making the top vibrate.. it's about having the bridge posts and bushings as solid as can be so that the string can have maximum effect over the pickup. And they will. Removing the bushing is simply drilling a hole in the center and pulling it out by the screw you then put in the hole. Just check the depth of the hole to start with so you don't drill through the back, which is only common sense. On mine, I had to hold the guitar on my lap, grab the screw with pliers and pull pretty hard. But she popped right out. If you can't do stuff like this.. though most of us do it all the time.. fixing a broken whatever around the house or in the garage.. then don't try it. But it's really not luthier grade work. Luthier grade work is stuff like purfling, graduating a carved top, knowing your router, bracing, and yes, hand carving. Don't believe me? grab some soft pine and try to make a bushing copy as I did. Then imagine doing that with hard mahogany. I never call myself a luthier. I have too much respect for guys who have dedicated thier lives to that endeavor to do that. I'm a musician. That's where I spent my time. But the little shop has been doing fine for three years now. No guitars lost. Nothing botched. On the other hand, I've fixed stuff that was botched, and improved guitars that needed it. And I never step over the line into territory I'm not qualified to do. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 that shouldn't be a large pic photobucket driving me bats. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 that shouldn't be a large pic photobucket driving me bats. TWANG LOL I've never posted a picture so I'm not criticizing....but....maybe that's why they call it photo "bucket" instead of "artist gallery". BTW....nice job on the dowels and good info. Willy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 thanks. I still can't figure out how I can resize.. yet it wont resize. It did resize one day, but then it didn't resize the next day. finally I just set the download to 680 and that seems to work ok. I guess it'll have to do! yeah.. you know, I'm not suggesting anyone can do all of this.. or that this is the way, or the only way, or the best way.. I'm just trying to show there are ways.. and they work well, and maybe the information would be handy, that's all. Like, it took a long time to make those by hand.. I've got all the tools I need.. I could knock out the perfect roundness on my lathe.. etc. I just did it this way because I like to do it by hand. I'm just trying to share. And I really don't care where anyone gets their parts. I'd much rather help them find what's good and get it on right than sell them something. It's just.. the other day I saw a guard for a sheri, tortoise shell.. on ebay. same stuff I use.. they wanted fifty bucks, and I see that and think.. well that's goofy. But.. no more epi sales. Just guitar talk! I love this stuff. I'm hooked. Been that way for years. so.. let's just have a good time! TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedgeSG Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Having changed the bushings for bridge swaps on three different G-400's myself... I can attest toTwang's statement of poor to non existant fit of the factory parts. The first one I pulled I dreaded like it was my own tooth. It had so little resistance to the removal I thought it had been previously changed. Five bushings and five similar re- sults later I realized that yes, the fit is just that sloppy. I doubt that I could come up with anything as symetrical as Twang's serrated dowels and I don't dig plugs spinnin' in holes either; but if I could get that good of a plug fit I wouldn't worry too much about it either. Thing is, most replacement bushings I've seen have been slightly oversize to compensate for factory ,"tolerances", as has been the case on every TonePros replace- ment I've installed thus far. In a post on this topic from before the great changeover, somebody mentioned that even temperature and humidity can affect this relationship: so to me a greater level of interference fit would be considered a plus. Coulple of im- portatnt alignment issues to keep in mind for peace of mind are thus.. if the bridge allows for side-to-side as well as vertical, individual alignment per string alignment is pretty much a non-issue. If the bushing is true- (i.e. wall thickness consistant, center- bore not offset drilled: then absolute post to post centering is maintained. Finally, (I've done this but don't recommend it), If the bushing is an oversize metal replacement- seeming to need a SLIGHT amount of fitting to be tightly installed; just tap it on in with a wood block protecting the top of the bushing. Done carefully this can result in the bushing's serrations cutting its own splines resulting in optimum fitment. Gotta kinda go easy on this...don't pound it down like tenderizing 67. cents a pound pork chops. Tap it squarely and firmly, but allow the serrations to do the cutting of the hole sides. I am a believer in vibration transmission at this connection point, and as many have stated, to me it's not so much a tone or sustaiment thing as much as a solid feel and stability thing. From my experience the factory "fit" in these holes could stand some tightening up and attempting a change isn't likely to make matters any worse. In all likelyhood will, in fact, help somewhat. Heck if I was confident in drilling, I could almost see gluing in a well centered, well fitting pair of wood plugs/dowels for material to house a new set of quality bushings. Wedgie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 that shouldn't be a large pic photobucket driving me bats. TWANG They look a lot like standard fluted dowels available in any hardware store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Wedge thanks for the info. another thing you can do with metal is leave a cut along the length of the side. that way the bushing closes the cut as you put it in. You can serrate the edges.. make a cut for one of the serattions.. insert it and get it to fit. I like wood, though! On my sheraton, one bushing was quite loose. On my lp studio, pulling those bushings for new ones was really scary they were in so tight. What I will probably do is redrill the sheri hole, and glue in a dowel, then redrill for the bushing. I believe the main thing is a tight fit. No air gaps. but consider.. in both my guitars, there's a fairly large space beneath the bushing that is simply a hole. When I did my lp studio, I made the dowel go all the way to the bottom, then drilled the dowel just enough for the bushing as to depth. I didnt' take the time I spent on this guys guitar. Mine aren't serrated. But I will as soon as I can get to it. Goldie must go to different hardware stores than me, as there's nothing that copys a bridge bushing in the ones I go to. Those were made of mahogany. Hand carved. And fit, I tested, just like the original bushings. They'll make the job of putting in the new bridge bushings relatively painless, and will conform not only to the guitar, inside and top, but the new bushings as well. boy, if you know where to get something like that premade for sure.. I'd like to know it, and I think others would, too. You can get hardwood dowel sticks, but they are smooth and not metric. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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