Epi Fretwire

[L1Picker]

Does anyone know definitively what the composition of Epiphone fretwire is? Aside from being shorter, it seems to be a different material than that on my Gibson guitars.

[Whitmore Willy]

6string,

 

Sorry, no definitive answer, although I too would be curious to know. (I am about to attempt my first fret leveling

and will be learning to refret if I screw it up.)

 

Most aftermarket wire I have seen lists as 18% hard nickel/silver. Explanations state that there is no actual

silver, rather that the mixture of copper and hard nickle give it a "silver" look.

Exotic Woods Co. lists theirs as:

Copper: 63.5 - 66.5 %

Nickel: 16.5 - 19.6%

Lead: 0.05% ( Maximum )

Iron: 0.25%

Nickel: 16.5 - 19.6%

Zinc: balance

 

It would not surprise me if Asian companies use wire with less hard nickel. There could also be the possibility that

the metals they use are not as pure.

 

I have looked for articles on Epi fret wire composition but to no avail. So, unless someone comes across such

an article I am afraid the answer may be relegated to the same catagory as: What kind of "Mo Hoe Gany" does

Epiphone use?

[L1Picker]

Willy... Thanks for listing the compositions.

 

I'm sure there has to be a difference in the blend that goes into it. Copper is relatively expensive compared to some of the other metals listed there, and I've noticed that Epi's tend to get more of a rust color in the crevices over time as compared to a green hue in the crevices of a Gibson. My guess would be that the Epi has less copper content.

 

I'd love to have some nice medium jumbo frets on my Epiphones.

[MarxBros]

The simple fact is it's a lot softer wire.

[L1Picker]

Has anyone here ever had a recent, Asian made Epi refretted with better wire?

[antwhi2001]

I've replaced a couple of frets. Don't expect any difference in sound, better quality frets will just last longer. If you're not replacing the lot, height is important to get right! All the recent Epis I've played have had what I'd call "medium" height...slightly taller than standard Fender frets. Most recent Gibsons seem to go for the "jumbos" which are fatter and taller and feel quite different, mainly because of the height.

[Steven Lister]

The simple fact is EPI's use a lot softer wire.

Show us all the proof. Not because you say so... or IMO... or compared to the Gibbys I've owned...

 

If you know a fact somehow' date=' then don't hide the goods. Some of us visit the forum to learn, so teach.

Otherwise, we must presume it is just something blowin' out your arse.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[L1Picker]

From my experience, I would say that the wire on Epi's is softer. I tend to wear grooves in my Epi frets faster than in my Gibson frets with comparable play time. I don't have the equipment to do a Rockwell Test, but I'd put money on the Epi wire being of a softer composition.

 

My gripe with Epi frets isn't so much in the hardness department, but in the size department. I like medium jumbo, or jumbo frets, and the only Epi's I've had that had decent wire on them IMO are the Elite series. Some folks like the smaller frets, I just don't prefer them.

[Steven Lister]

From my experience' date=' I would say that the wire on Epi's [i']is[/i] softer. I tend to wear grooves in my Epi frets faster than in my Gibson frets with comparable play time.

 

A couple of others agree with you. But a majority report no difference. Why there should be different results is unclear. And as you said "in my experience" or "in my opinion" that's cool. You also qualified your statement by saying you "tend to" so we can take it for face value.

 

But when someone says it is a fact, then I say fine, but show us the money.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

 

A couple of others agree with you. But a majority report no difference. Why there should be different results is unclear. And as you said "in my experience" or "in my opinion" that's cool. You also qualified your statement by saying you "tend to" so we can take it for face value.

 

But when someone says it is a fact' date=' then I say fine, but show us the money.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

The fact that the frets on Epi's scratch so easy when you bend a string is proof enough.

[Steven Lister]

The fact that the frets on Epi's scratch so easy when you bend a string is proof enough.

Far' date=' far away from proof.

Scratch easy? Every metal scratches. Hell, use a hard enough material and you can scratch and cut a diamond.

Scratching does not equal softness. It does not equal softer than Gibson's.

 

Come on MarxBros: you are one of the 1st to call on other members to support their claims. So when the shoe fits.... And why hide the proof from us if there is any?

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

Far' date=' far away from proof.

Scratch easy? Every metal scratches. Hell, use a hard enough material and you can scratch and cut a diamond.

Scratching does not equal softness. It does not equal softer than Gibson's.

 

Come on MarxBros: you are one of the 1st to call on other members to support their claims. So when the shoe fits.... And why hide the proof from us if there is any?

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

Your mindless devotion to Epi's is laughable.... at best. But sad in reality.

 

If you bend a string several times hard on a Gibson and on an Epi the Epi's frets will show noticable scratches, the Gibsons will not. It's not rocket science, do I have to get a Rockwell rating, you'd find fault with that result too to defend your precious Epi.

[Steven Lister]

Your mindless devotion to Epi's is laughable.... at best. But sad in reality.

Well where did that come from? This is not about devotion/loyalty to any brand. I have none' date=' but even if I did it would not alter a fact. So let's keep this factual.

 

If you bend a string several times hard on a Gibson and on an Epi the Epi's frets will show noticable scratches' date=' the Gibsons will not.[/quote']

Not true. Every used Gibson I've played has scratches on the fret wires. Every used guitar I've played has scratches on the frets. Most every member here will look at their guitars of every brand and find fret wire scratches.

 

It's not rocket science' date=' do I have to get a Rockwell rating, you'd find fault with that result too....[/quote']

Agreed..., it's not rocket science at all... metalurgy maybe and some facts -- like a Rockwell rating, that would be good.

So keep it real and show..., or put psuedo-facts into commentary form otherwise you are "mindlessly devoted" (to use your term) to misleading people.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[Dave]

Gibson talks about their fret wire in this link. I couldn't find a reference on the Epiphone wire. Gibby is a steel alloy with 18% nickel silver referred to as "German silver".

 

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/Gibson%20Tone%20Tips_%20Frets/

[Steven Lister]

Gibby is a steel alloy with 18% nickel silver referred to as "German silver".

Right and it isn't anything special' date=' it's "standard" industry fret wire. You can buy harder alloy or stainless but Gibson uses the same old standard wire as everyone else. Maybe for good reason. The trade-off for harder wire is tone loss, clankyness, sterility.

 

Here's are some interesting parts of an old post from "Spud" (who had a lot of credibility around here):

------------------------------------------

[i']There's been a lot of industry talk in recent years about "soft" or poor quality fretwire. I'm sure that there are bad batches that weren't tempered properly...but I suspect there always have been.

 

The perception of early fret wear in new/newish guitars often has more to do with how the frets are profiled. Well rounded narrow frets with a small radius crown will appear to wear very quickly at first because the crown is very narrow. Any wear notches will appear to be deeper or worse than they actually are. The wear slows down markedly as use flattens the profile of the fret. Wider frets with a larger radius crown will not appear to wear as quickly.

 

One particular Fender Strat in my collection is good example. I bought it new in 1990. After a few months, the wear to the frets appeared to be quite severe. After another five YEARS, it had worsened very little. After 16 years and two level and crown jobs...the frets are still plenty tall enough and good for another ten years of regular use.

Some folks these days are getting into stainless steel frets. They will obviously last longer...but some folks claim the sound to be a bit clinical... and many techs don't like wearing their files out on them.[/i]

----------------------------------------------------

 

EPI frets are profiled as described in bold typeface.

Gibson frets are profiled as stated in the underlined portion.

 

IMO this difference is why some claim that EPI fret wire is soft, but it is not softer only appears to be at first blush (that is to say that no one has come forward yet with any fact based proof).

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[MarxBros]

Right and it isn't anything special' date=' it's "standard" industry fret wire. You can buy harder alloy or stainless but Gibson uses the same old standard wire as everyone else. Maybe for good reason. The trade-off for harder wire is tone loss, clankyness, sterility.

 

Here's are some interesting parts of an old post from "Spud" (who had a lot of credibility around here):

------------------------------------------

[i']There's been a lot of industry talk in recent years about "soft" or poor quality fretwire. I'm sure that there are bad batches that weren't tempered properly...but I suspect there always have been.

 

The perception of early fret wear in new/newish guitars often has more to do with how the frets are profiled. Well rounded narrow frets with a small radius crown will appear to wear very quickly at first because the crown is very narrow. Any wear notches will appear to be deeper or worse than they actually are. The wear slows down markedly as use flattens the profile of the fret. Wider frets with a larger radius crown will not appear to wear as quickly.

 

One particular Fender Strat in my collection is good example. I bought it new in 1990. After a few months, the wear to the frets appeared to be quite severe. After another five YEARS, it had worsened very little. After 16 years and two level and crown jobs...the frets are still plenty tall enough and good for another ten years of regular use.

Some folks these days are getting into stainless steel frets. They will obviously last longer...but some folks claim the sound to be a bit clinical... and many techs don't like wearing their files out on them.[/i]

----------------------------------------------------

 

EPI frets are profiled as described in bold typeface.

Gibson frets are profiled as stated in the underlined portion.

 

IMO this difference is why some claim that EPI fret wire is soft, but it is not softer only appears to be at first blush (that is to say that no one has come forward yet with any fact based proof).

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

You really want to believe the fret wire is of decent grade on Epi's...it's not. If Epi is willing to save a few cents on cheap internal wire think not that they have not compromised on the frets?

[Dave]

You really want to believe the fret wire is of decent grade on Epi's...it's not. If Epi is willing to save a few cents on cheap internal wire think not that they have not compromised on the frets?

 

Stewmac sells fret wire in 56 ft packs for $40. If you buy 3 packs, it's $34. It takes about 6 feet to do a guitar. At $40 for 56 feet, you can do 9 guitars with 2 feet left over. That's about $4.45 per guitar bought in a small quantity.

 

Considering that Epihone or any other manufacturer buys fret wire in huge quantities, the cost for a guitar would not be significant. I would guess that the fret wire on a single mass produced guitar would cost about $2 or maybe less. How do you save money on building a guitar when the cost for frets is that low? The cost is in the labor to install that $2 product.

 

I have noticed that scratchy feel that you talked about on epiphones. It goes away after the frets are broken in. I think that it is due to incomplete polishing that leaves some rough material on the tops of some of the frets. It's gone after you bend a few times in that area.

 

I also have a 30 year old Fender Strat that has some wear dimples on certain frets where I consistently played a lot of bends in solos. That showed up in the first few years and hasn't gotten any worse over time. Once the crown wears, the wider portion takes the brunt of the abuse. I also played Dean Markley SS strings during the time the fre wear showed up.

[MarxBros]

 

Stewmac sells fret wire in 56 ft packs for $40. If you buy 3 packs' date=' it's $34. It takes about 6 feet to do a guitar. At $40 for 56 feet, you can do 9 guitars with 2 feet left over. That's about $4.45 per guitar bought in a small quantity.

 

Considering that Epihone or any other manufacturer buys fret wire in huge quantities, the cost for a guitar would not be significant. I would guess that the fret wire on a single mass produced guitar would cost about $2 or maybe less. How do you save money on building a guitar when the cost for frets is that low? The cost is in the labor to install that $2 product.

 

.[/quote']Again...yes frets are cheap, but intenal wire for the gutiar is cheaper, yet Epi skimps on the internal wire, we're probably talking a few cents saving on skimping on internal wire...yet THEY do it.

 

Pots are cheap, yet Epi skimps, again a matter of another dollar or 2 for better pots.

 

You simply don't understand manufacturing/costing at all...EVERY penny that can be saved on an item that is a low cost point targeted item WILL be saved, $2 on every guitar adds up when you are making hundreds of thousands. Hell they are lookng for pennies nickels and dimes to save.

 

Manufactures use the Chep pallet system just to save a buck or 2 on shipping pallets, sounds like small change, but it adds up quick. It's those easy low hanging apples that will be plucked to save money like frets, wire, jack, pots, strap pin, bridge, stop tail, posts, tuners.

 

I'm involved with many big name manufactures, you would not believe for example what the Clorox company dictates to us to save a penny here and there.

[Steven Lister]

If MarxBros is right, then what explains this fact:

-- many Epiphones are played for years (professionally by some of us which means a lot of hours of playing time) w/o excessive fret wear? Five years on my Elite LP at 2+ hours per day and the frets are as good as new…, and I use nickel steel, heavy .012 -.052 strings and a rather heavy-handed fretting approach.

 

Trying to guess a company’s procurement methods is about as accurate as trying to predict your girlfriend’s next mood. Methods vary widely within a company and from one to the next. I’ve witnessed companies wrangle every cent on some items while without blinking an eye they will throw away hundreds of dollars at a pop somewhere else. Costs are always passed on to the consumer anyway. Hey it’s an argument (both ways) but it’s a very poor one.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[L1Picker]

Five years on my Elite LP at 2+ hours per day and the frets are as good as new.

 

From the couple of Elite series Epi's I've owned, I would say the fretwire is on par with that of Gibson. It's totally different than the wire used on my standard Epi guitars.

[Dave]

Again...yes frets are cheap' date=' but intenal wire for the gutiar is cheaper, yet Epi skimps on the internal wire, we're probably talking a few cents saving on skimping on internal wire...yet THEY do it.

 

Pots are cheap, yet Epi skimps, again a matter of another dollar or 2 for better pots.

 

[b']You simply don't understand manufacturing/costing at all...EVERY penny that can be saved on an item that is a low cost point targeted item WILL be saved, $2 on every guitar adds up when you are making hundreds of thousands. Hell they are lookng for pennies nickels and dimes to save.[/b]

 

Manufactures use the Chep pallet system just to save a buck or 2 on shipping pallets, sounds like small change, but it adds up quick. It's those easy low hanging apples that will be plucked to save money like frets, wire, jack, pots, strap pin, bridge, stop tail, posts, tuners.

 

I'm involved with many big name manufactures, you would not believe for example what the Clorox company dictates to us to save a penny here and there.

 

I'm a Customer Engineer for a multinational company that manufactures very expensive production printing equipment. I do understand cost cutting and my company does it also. The first thing a company does after manufacturing a prototype is ask "how can we save a buck here and there." That means putting out bids for cost effective parts that meet the design standards. Yes, sometimes the supplier meets the standard at first, but cheapens the part over time. That usually means they lose the contract if they don't fix the problem when we discover that the part is failing prematurely.

 

You don't overbuild when doing so means that you can't compete with the competition. In a guitar, heavy internal wiring doesn't help the sound or the reliablity. Signals in a guitar are low level, typically 1 volt. There's no measureable loss in a foot or so of wire. In a 20 foot guitar cord, wire size affects tone and signal levels. The pots in an Epi may not be the expensive variety, but they work and don't cause any problems in my guitars. The pickup switches will oxidize in Gibson or Epiphone guitars, usually due to not playing the guitar and flipping the switches. The switches are of a self cleaning variety that "wipe" the contact when actuated. If you always leave it on one pickup or the other, you may find that you have to flip the switch back and forth a few times to get the other pickup to work. That's what happens in an open design that is prone to oxidation. My Gibson needs switch actuation to remain in an operative state, also.

 

Overall, I think Epiphone has done well competing in an extremely competitive environment. When you can charge $2000 a pop, you can use better components. If the going price is $599, you have to cut somewhere, hopefully in an area that doesn't compromise performance or reliability. You get nice amenities in a Lexus, but not so nice in a Corolla. That doesn't mean that the Corolla isn't comfortable, reliable transportation.

 

I played my Gibson LP last night and the frets are smooth and bends are without that scratchy feel. They are also bold and flatter on the top from 15 years of play. I do think that there's a difference in the shape of the crown on a Gibson. Anyone out there who's had a fret replacement job done on their Epi? Did the scratchiness go away?

[Lord Summerisle]

I'm tired of this constant, endless, bashing of Epiphone for skimping or saving money or whatever.

 

Try and see the whole package. I defy anyone to find Gibson solid-body 'copies' (for want of a better word), that come anywhere near Epiphone's quality for Epiphone's price point.

 

I want a Gibson SG Standard. No doubt about it. That's what I'm gassing for. But that guitar costs nearly $1500 at Sweetwater. At present, I have a G-400. These presently sell for $399. So just over 1/4 of the price of the Gibson.

 

I've played enough Gibson SG Standards to know that they are superior to their Epiphone 'cousins.' But neither do I believe that the Epiphone is only 25% of the quality of the Gibson.

 

The G-400 has given me a hell of a lot of pleasure (and continues to do so.) I've jammed with it, gigged with it and recorded with it. And it actually cost me $299 in one of Musicians Friend's periodic sales. That's pretty good value, in my opinion.

 

Actually, I think MarxBros is right. Everything is built to a price point. Yes, even Gibsons. Unless one has the money to approach an independent luthier and say, "Build me a guitar to my specification, I don't care how much it costs," the you're always going to be stuck with someone else's decisions about how your guitar is made - because for them, building guitars is a business. And every business aims for maximum profitability.

 

But this does not negate the question of value for money. I was reading the March 2009 copy of Guitar Player last night.

 

Exhibit 1, The Fender Custom Shop Yngwie Malmsteen Tribute Stratocaster:

 

 

It costs $12,500. Yes, you read that right, $12,500.

 

The reviewer noted: "Some Strats are Strattier than others," and basically concluded that this is a very 'Stratty' Strat.

 

At $12,500 I should hope so. Are you asking me to believe that there isn't something comparably 'Stratty' in the Fender range (even including the Fender Custom Shop) for thousands of dollars less? Maybe one of those cheaper guitars even has the tone controls connected (unlike this one, at Malmsteen's request, apparently).

 

My G-400 isn't a Gibson SG Standard. But it's a nice guitar, and shockingly good value for money.

 

By the way - the frets are wearing. When they get too low I might even invest in having it refretted (rather that just dumping it on a bonfire). Imagine that.

[L1Picker]

CB had mentioned in another post somewhere that he was happy with the fretwire on his P93. I hadn't had mine out in a while and just noticed when I uncased it that the wire is medium and feels much better than is what is on my Emperor...the guitar that got me to thinking about the differences in fretwire to begin with. I wish they had used the same fretwire on the Emperor.

[MarxBros]

If MarxBros is right' date=' then what explains this fact:

-- many Epiphones are played for years (professionally by some of us which means a lot of hours of playing time) w/o excessive fret wear? Five years on my Elite LP at 2+ hours per day and the frets are as good as new

[/quote']I never said the Elite used the cheap wire.