Interesting Intonation problems...

[Sjael]

Before I begin, I'll mention that I've setup dozens of guitars since I started playing, and I consider myself to be pretty good at it, I've never had any real issues...

 

Until today. My Explorer has a dead spot at the 12th fret of the G string, so I decided to try a set of D'Addario Nickelwound .11s (normally .10s) to see if it would help any (I use that fret a lot :P)

I was expecting to have to at least re-intonate, and it turns out the action was fine with the thicker strings, so it would be a walk in the park. Until I tried adjusting the intonation.

 

 

Both the G and B strings are still too high when fretted, with the saddles wound all the way towards the tailpiece (the G is about 17 cents too high, the B about 10. They do get sharper when the saddles adjusted the other way, so the are working properly it seems.) The high E is perfect at about the middle of the bridge. The low E and A strings are fine as well, but the D is being a real ♥♥♥♥. For the neckwards half of its adjustment, it functions normally, but after moving past halfway towards the tailpiece, it raises the fretted note in pitch again. Over the full range of travel (neck->tail,) it goes from about +11 cents down to +4, then back up to +7/8. Obviously I can't intonate this one right.   

 

Even though I'm using EMG pickups (weak magnets) I tried lowering them away from the strings, but to no avail. I just can't imagine three strings in a set being bad, I've never had a single bad string fro d'addario before.

 

The saddle positions were pretty typical with .10s on, looking something like this:

                                                   __

                    __                __

          __                __

__

 

 

I'm really kinda lost here. Y'all know I don't ask for technical help unless I'm desperate; I'm very technically-minded and can figure just about everything out for myself. Halp plz?   

[StewartB]

Before I begin, I'll mention that I've setup dozens of guitars since I started playing, and I consider myself to be pretty good at it, I've never had any real issues...

 

Until today. My Explorer has a dead spot at the 12th fret of the G string, so I decided to try a set of D'Addario Nickelwound .11s (normally .10s) to see if it would help any (I use that fret a lot :P)

I was expecting to have to at least re-intonate, and it turns out the action was fine with the thicker strings, so it would be a walk in the park. Until I tried adjusting the intonation.

 

 

Both the G and B strings are still too high when fretted, with the saddles wound all the way towards the tailpiece (the G is about 17 cents too high, the B about 10. They do get sharper when the saddles adjusted the other way, so the are working properly it seems.) The high E is perfect at about the middle of the bridge. The low E and A strings are fine as well, but the D is being a real ♥♥♥♥. For the neckwards half of its adjustment, it functions normally, but after moving past halfway towards the tailpiece, it raises the fretted note in pitch again. Over the full range of travel (neck->tail,) it goes from about +11 cents down to +4, then back up to +7/8. Obviously I can't intonate this one right.

 

Even though I'm using EMG pickups (weak magnets) I tried lowering them away from the strings, but to no avail. I just can't imagine three strings in a set being bad, I've never had a single bad string fro d'addario before.

 

The saddle positions were pretty typical with .10s on, looking something like this:

__

__ __

__ __

__

 

 

I'm really kinda lost here. Y'all know I don't ask for technical help unless I'm desperate; I'm very technically-minded and can figure just about everything out for myself. Halp plz?

 

Probably know less than you about these things but I notice you don't mention the nut at all? No chance that the thicker strings are maybe sitting too high or catching in the slots?

 

Stewart

[jerrymac]

Before I begin, I'll mention that I've setup dozens of guitars since I started playing, and I consider myself to be pretty good at it, I've never had any real issues...

 

Until today. My Explorer has a dead spot at the 12th fret of the G string, so I decided to try a set of D'Addario Nickelwound .11s (normally .10s) to see if it would help any (I use that fret a lot :P)

I was expecting to have to at least re-intonate, and it turns out the action was fine with the thicker strings, so it would be a walk in the park. Until I tried adjusting the intonation.

 

 

Both the G and B strings are still too high when fretted, with the saddles wound all the way towards the tailpiece (the G is about 17 cents too high, the B about 10. They do get sharper when the saddles adjusted the other way, so the are working properly it seems.) The high E is perfect at about the middle of the bridge. The low E and A strings are fine as well, but the D is being a real ♥♥♥♥. For the neckwards half of its adjustment, it functions normally, but after moving past halfway towards the tailpiece, it raises the fretted note in pitch again. Over the full range of travel (neck->tail,) it goes from about +11 cents down to +4, then back up to +7/8. Obviously I can't intonate this one right.

 

Even though I'm using EMG pickups (weak magnets) I tried lowering them away from the strings, but to no avail. I just can't imagine three strings in a set being bad, I've never had a single bad string fro d'addario before.

 

The saddle positions were pretty typical with .10s on, looking something like this:

__

__ __

__ __

__

 

 

I'm really kinda lost here. Y'all know I don't ask for technical help unless I'm desperate; I'm very technically-minded and can figure just about everything out for myself. Halp plz?

 

Just a crazy though, are the nut slots wide enough for the thicker strings??? Maybe the strings are hanging up in the slots rather than sitting solidly on the nut causing a bit of instability as you play down the neck.

[jerrymac]

Probably know less than you about these things but I notice you don't mention the nut at all? No chance that the thicker strings are maybe sitting too high or catching in the slots?

 

Stewart

 

You beat me to it Stew!!!

[Sjael]

You beat me to it Stew!!!

 

Oops, forgot to mention that! When I took the old strings off the first thing I did was check that they sat properly in the nut (TUSQ XL one I cut myself.) Even though they appeared to be properly seated, I gave each slot a quick going-over to be sure they were wide enough.

 

 

All in all, I'm reasonably sure they are sitting right, the lower frets are fine (with the open tuned to pitch.

 

It's really got me stumped.  :P

 

 

[StewartB]

Oops, forgot to mention that! When I took the old strings off the first thing I did was check that they sat properly in the nut (TUSQ XL one I cut myself.) Even though they appeared to be properly seated, I gave each slot a quick going-over to be sure they were wide enough.

 

 

All in all, I'm reasonably sure they are sitting right, the lower frets are fine (with the open tuned to pitch.

 

It's really got me stumped. :P

 

 

 

That makes three of us - you, me , & Jerrymac!! Running out of ideas. Fishing around here, but maybe neck relief adjustment needed?

 

Stewart

[Bender 4 Life]

Going up just 1 size in strings shouldn't cause this much more neck tension, but, have you checked the neck relief with the new strings tuned to open pitch?

 

If your neck is off, it'll cause all sorts of problems.

[Sjael]

Going up just 1 size in strings shouldn't cause this much more neck tension, but, have you checked the neck relief with the new strings tuned to open pitch?

 

If your neck is off, it'll cause all sorts of problems.

Well I kept the perfect action for me without any buzz anywhere so I presume it's not much different, but I'll let the neck settle with the new strings overnight and have a fiddle with it tomorrow.

 

 

I'll get back to you. 

 

Cheers

 

 

[Whitmore Willy]

Sjael,

 

Good insight by Bender,

Hoping that after the neck settles your problems disappear, if not:

Gonna take a real wild shot here.

 

Any chance your saddles are becoming the tiniest bit too worn?

Try raising the tailpiece a "fair" amount. As you know, this will increase the string

clearance over the edge of the bridge.

 

(If) it allows you to adjust your intonation properly, that might indicate the source

of the problem.

 

What makes me suspicious is the D string.

 

I dunno, just a wild guess.

 

Willy

[Sjael]

Sjael,

 

Good insight by Bender,

Hoping that after the neck settles your problems disappear, if not:

Gonna take a real wild shot here.

 

Any chance your saddles are becoming the tiniest bit too worn?

Try raising the tailpiece a "fair" amount. As you know, this will increase the string

clearance over the edge of the bridge.

 

(If) it allows you to adjust your intonation properly, that might indicate the source

of the problem.

 

What makes me suspicious is the D string.

 

I dunno, just a wild guess.

 

Willy

 

Good suggestions, but my bridge (Graphtech Resomax with Stringsaver saddles) is only about 3-4 months old, and I ditched the tailpiece for a Bigsby at the same time.   

 

 

I guess I could have mentioned that before though.   

 

In any case, I have plenty of daylight between the strings and anything but the saddles and nut. The strings are seated in the saddles properly; they came pre-cut to fit much bigger strings than .11s. 

[KX36]

I think, whatever the reason for the problem is, you're going to have to make a compromise. I can never picture which way to move saddles for intonation in my head without doing it at the time, but assuming you can't get around the problem by rotating saddles 180 degrees and that the nut and saddles are well slotted etc; I think you're either going to have to compromise on string gauge/tuning/action to change the string tension/length or just put up with it as "close enough for rock 'n' roll", or change the bridge again to a wider one with more travel for the saddles...

 

...or rout the bridge bar's holes so that you can move the whole bridge further forwards or backwards on its pegs until the saddles are just about in the right place, or dowel the holes and redrill them in the right place etc.

[Sjael]

One overnight later, and I have *some* results.

• The D string had perfect intonation when I picked the guitar up today.   
• The G string is still off by ~14 cents, reversing the saddle can't compensate for that much.   
• The B string goes fine with the saddle wound all the way to the tailpiece.   :mellow:

In any case, the .11s had no effect at all on that dead spot, so I will likely just go back to 10s. Pity my supplier doesn't stock any sets with wound Gs, or even D'Addario EXL110+s (.105, etc.)

 

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.   

 

Edit:

Forgot to mention, I have a couple more sets of .11s (how would I know my guitar would flat refuse to use them? ) so I'll try another set on and see if it was just some crap strings.

 

 

 

[Sjael]

Update: I tried a new set of .11s, they are similar, the wound strings want to be even longer and the plain strings a bit shorter, so it's pretty much swapped a couple of strings around for intonation problems. 

 

It'll be nearly a week until I can get some replacement 10s, so I'll give the truss rod a yank in the mean time and re-set everything.