Interesting discovery today

[wiggy]

I was doing a little window shopping in my local guitar shop earlier today (particularly looking at Gold Tops as I'm gassing for one badly) and picked up a particularly nice lightback Traditional. What really jumped out at me was the fact that the body and neck appeared to be exactly (and I do mean EXACTLY) the same wood as my Epi. Same grain pattern, same colour, same everything, other than the fact that the body was two piece and mine's three.

 

I checked out a few more new Gibby's and ditto on every single one.

 

I mentioned this to one of the staff and he said that he thought the Ltd Edition Stds in Natural (like mine) were in fact 'proper' mahogany which would explain the similarity. Gibson customer service, however, had told me when I queried the timber used a whiler back that it was Nato for the body and neck.

 

Throws up an interesting conundrum - If Gibson are using 'proper' mahogany for their standards and traditionals then I've got a very unusual Epiphone otherwise it appears that the mahogany on the current Gibbys ain't quite what it seems.

[Hungrycat]

Most Epis I've seen with a trans finish have been Nato (or something like it), veneered with Honduran mahogany. Gibby's are solid Honduran, I believe...

[wiggy]

Mine has a Honduran mahogany veneer on the back but not the sides and not the neck. Now I'm also pretty certain (damn near 100%) that the body and neck on mine's Nato which is why the fact that the Gibbys looked identical in those areas rather jumped out at me.

[Hungrycat]

I've heard stories about Epi running the veneers up the sides and veneering the neck. But I can't confirm.

Barring that^^:I'd be willing to bet on a Special Run Epi made from Honduran, rather than a cover-up involving Nato Gibsons. As evil as Gibson is, I don't think they could get away with THAT. Not that Nato is bad, it's just not Honduran.

[wiggy]

Interestingly I've noticed that no where on the Gibson site does it mention Honduran Mahogany but simply Mahogany in respect to Traditionals and Standards.

 

Also I found this over at the Mylespaul forum in a question regarding whether GIbson have changed the mahogany they use. The interesting part of the response, to me, is the part I've highlighted.

 

 

Henry responded on this :

 

We use various sources for mahogany. The are many species of mahogany in the world.

 

We are indeed interested in expanding our supply of certified mahogany. Unfortunately, wood supplies are shrinking and certified wood supplies are even harder to find, as the timber industry is just starting to wake up to the need to certify its woods.

 

Regardless of where the wood comes from, it must meet our quality standard.

 

The conversation about coloration in mahogany is seriously in error. The character of the wood is very much affected by soil and water the tree had available to it, much more than specie. If the soil is wet the tree tends to absorb silica which makes the wood heavy and darker. This is a bad thing, making it resonate less (think stone) and the guitar heavier. As an example, for reissue grade Les Paul's the wood is sorted for the lightest grade of color and weighed to insure it is light.

 

All mahogany must be filled because of the porous nature of the wood. If the pores were not filled, it would suck up the finish when it was wet. Most mahogany is stained to maintain a consistent color since the wood coloration can vary quite considerably even on the same plank of wood.

 

For some reason, people enjoy taking a kernel of truth (sourcing from certified forests in Fiji) and blowing it up to something that is antagonistic to our company.

 

The truth is visible in the guitar you buy. You can hear how it sounds and see how it looks. Our guitars sound great and look great because we have high standards for all components in the instrument. We are also proud to support conservation efforts by making extraordinary efforts to purchase Forest Stewardship Council Certified woods which have be doing for many years.

 

Hope this answers your question.

 

 

 

Henry

[james_edward]

Epi LP's are veneered on the backside with a real (tropical south American)mahogany - which may explain why your guitar looks like the Gibby version.

 

I seriously doubt there is even Epi LP 1 out there with veneered sides.

 

These days there is little Honduran Mahogany and I doubt Gibson uses it exclusively, but "Tropical South American mahoganies" are available and that's probably what they've been using.

[wiggy]

Epi LP's are veneered on the backside with a real (tropical south American)mahogany - which may explain why your guitar looks like the Gibby version.

 

I seriously doubt there is even Epi LP 1 out there with veneered sides.

 

These days there is little Honduran Mahogany and I doubt Gibson uses it exclusively, but "Tropical South American mahoganies" are available and that's probably what they've been using.

 

I wasn't talking about the back which, as I said in an earlier post in the thread, is veneered with Honduran Mahogany. I was talking about the main body wood and the neck wood which matched the Gibby 100% in grain and colour.

 

Nato is a South American Mahogany species and a perfectly acceptable guitar wood so I guess it's not impossible that they're using it.

 

Neck

 

 

Body (Side not maple veneer obviously!)

 

[AlanH]

Nato is a South American Mahogany species and a perfectly acceptable guitar wood so I guess it's not impossible that they're using it.

 

 

So, from what Henry says (or isn't prepared to say) and from the fact that nato can be described as South American Mahogany it seems perfectly honest and above board for Gibsons to me made from nato and to use the term mahogany to describe it. Henry argues that the woods used by Gibson are carefully selected for their tone - "play one and you'll see" so we also have to accept that at face value.

 

Therefore, it seems to me that Gibsons can legitimately be made from nato, which they have selected specifically for use in Gibson guitars. I don't have a problem with this.

 

Wood is wood....

Mahogany type wood is mahogany type wood....

...A good piece of wood is a good piece

..and a bad piece of wood is a bad piece.

 

I think that probably everybody is correct here, including Henry.

 

Alan

[Hungrycat]

My point is that Nato isn't Mahogany. It's in a different family (or maybe genus...I don't remember...) Is it commonly referred to as being a "mahogany"? YES. Is it perfectly acceptable to use for guitars? YES. Is it nice? YES.

 

But real Honduran Mahogany is a hell of a lot nicer, and if Gibsons are now Nato, it's just one more reason that they're overpriced. Because Nato isn't expensive and Honduran IS. And that's why you shouldn't buy one. Fight the Power.

[Hungrycat]

Wood is wood....

Mahogany type wood is mahogany type wood....

...A good piece of wood is a good piece

..and a bad piece of wood is a bad piece.

 

Ummm... No. You've never had a Basswood instrument have you? They should call that stuff Crapwood.

[Darren W]

Pick up a geet, play it for a while, you like, you buy, easy, the rest is bordering on Gibson snobbery.

[wiggy]

So, from what Henry says (or isn't prepared to say) and from the fact that nato can be described as South American Mahogany it seems perfectly honest and above board for Gibsons to me made from nato and to use the term mahogany to describe it. Henry argues that the woods used by Gibson are carefully selected for their tone - "play one and you'll see" so we also have to accept that at face value.

 

Therefore, it seems to me that Gibsons can legitimately be made from nato, which they have selected specifically for use in Gibson guitars. I don't have a problem with this.

 

Wood is wood....

Mahogany type wood is mahogany type wood....

...A good piece of wood is a good piece

..and a bad piece of wood is a bad piece.

 

I think that probably everybody is correct here, including Henry.

 

Alan

 

I wasn't denegrating Gibson for what appears to be the use of Nato but rather reporting what I seems to be the current wood used in at least a dozen current Traditionals and Standards. Not a massive sample I know but still significant if only to put current production into persepctive.

 

In terms of costs I doubt that there is THAT much difference between 'Honduran' Mahogany (sourced from wherever) and Nato once you factor volume and shipping costs (a container full of timber costs a fixed amount to ship regardless of what the timber actually is.) I'd guess that the biggest costs involved in producing a Gibby are:

 

1.) Labour costs (Wages, benefits, etc)

2.) Electronics & Hardware

3.) Power/Utility costs

[AlanH]

I wasn't denegrating Gibson for what appears to be the use of Nato but rather reporting what I seems to be the current wood used in at least a dozen current Traditionals and Standards. Not a massive sample I know but still significant if only to put current production into persepctive.

 

In terms of costs I doubt that there is THAT much difference between 'Honduran' Mahogany (sourced from wherever) and Nato once you factor volume and shipping costs (a container full of timber costs a fixed amount to ship regardless of what the timber actually is.) I'd guess that the biggest costs involved in producing a Gibby are:

 

1.) Labour costs (Wages, benefits, etc)

2.) Electronics & Hardware

3.) Power/Utility costs

 

Sorry, I wasn't backing up Gibson per se. It's good that you've pointed this out, Wiggy.

 

NB. On your list I would put mutliple nitrocellulose coating on there too. However, I suppose that massively adds to 1&3 in terms of staff time and storage.

 

Cheers

 

Alan

[Fadedepi]

NATO = FURNITURE GRADE MAHOGANY. A TAD DIFFERENT FROM INSTURMENT GRADE.

 

Faded.....

[gearhead]

Here's a few links to descriptions of "Nato" wood.

 

Digitaldarrell.com

 

Guitarsearcher.com

 

Tone Woods

 

________________________________________________________________________________

Nato wood

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Nato wood is a collective name for wood from Mora trees. The best-known species are Mora excelsa (Mora) and Mora gonggrijpii (Morabukea), with the latter contributing less (occurring in a smaller area).

 

The wood may vary in appearance, with reddish brown being the dominant color, but in varying shades and often with darker or lighter streaks. The wood is dense and not particularly pleasant; it is not very easy to dry or to work. However, the wood is available in large dimensions and is well above average in properties such as resistance to wear, strength and durability. It finishes well. It is used for heavy construction, industrial flooring, railroad ties, etc. Smaller billets are used to build acoustic and electric guitars.

 

Because of its availability and price, many Chinese and Korean imported guitars use nato in their inexpensive guitars.

 

, BC Rich guitars

 

, Eastwood guitars

 

, and others manufacturers often refer to nato as "eastern mahogany" due to the use of the more expensive mahogany wood in higher grade instruments."

______________________________________________________________________________

 

So as you can see, "Nato" wood is NOT a mahogany of any type, although it is being used in guitar, and other stringed instrument construction.

 

 

As for Gibson and woods they use, I would definitely tend to think that, as picky as Gibson is about the woods they select, that it has a big impact on the price of their instruments. And of course the labor and hardware!

 

Even as much as I love my Epiphone guitars, and they are good quality for the money, in the end you get what you pay for(sometimes)!