Casino P90 - rewind specs?

[Pumpkinhead]

Hello. I recently bought a 1997 Epiphone Casino, Korean (Peerless).

 

I want to upgrade the pickups (the stock ones are very muddy) but I’ve learned there are very few after-market P90s that will actually fit a Casino. It seems to be Lollar or Kent Armstrong and that’s it. I’d love some Lollars but, I’m in the UK and they'll cost too much to import, once shipping, tax and duty is added.

 

Plan B is to try the rewind route. I’ve asked a couple of UK pickup builders and they quoted me a reasonable price to rewind the stock pickups, replace the magnets and wax pot them.

 

I just thought it was worth checking here what sort of specification to ask for in terms of output and magnet type.

 

I’m definitely after something with a lower/vintage output but I still want a bright and lively sound, especially for that in-between “jangle” position. I already have two guitars with P90s – a Gibson Historic ’56 Goldtop that sounds really nice but, if I'm being picky, the soapbars are a bit too hot (I tend to use them knocked back to 6-7 on the volume pots). I also have a cheaper, 3xP90 Yamaha TVL (335-type construction) which has slightly darker sounding pickups that I don’t like as much (I might consider replacing these next).

 

Any ideas of what I should be looking for, or should I just trust the builders to come up with their take on a vintage P90?

 

Thanks and sorry for the long post!

[bluelake07]

The descriptions from this UK company might help you

 

http://www.wizardpickups.co.uk/shop.asp?category=P90

[Pumpkinhead]

The descriptions from this UK company might help you

 

http://www.wizardpickups.co.uk/shop.asp?category=P90

Thanks for that Bluelake.

I have seen other websites with similar descriptions, including the Lollar one.

However, I'm still confused on a couple of points.

1. What was the spec of the original Casino/ES330 pickups in terms of magnets and output?

(I'm confused as I've read about Alnico II and Alnico IV magnets being used. It might be that both types were used either in different years or maybe just depending on day-to-day availability.)

2. Some websites (the above link included) seem to say that using an Alnico II magnet will give a darker sound compared to Alnico IV or V. Yet the Lollar site describes the '50s wind set, which use Alnico II magnets as:

"...these P-90s have lower output, more delicate attack, less midrange and bass, and are coupled with weak magnets. Overall tone is brighter with less of a grind to the distortion quality..."

Which sounds like exactly what I'm after for the Casino but seems to contradict the Alnico II = less top end thing.

 

Of course it may be that I'm just too focussed on the magnet thing and that's only one variable. It might be other factors (no. of winds, wire used) that are just as influential on the final sound.

[gearhead]

The magnets have their fare share in what the pickup sounds like. If you took two pickups with identical windings but one with an Alnico II and the other with a IV or V , the Alnico II would be a cleaner, smoother sound with less output than the IV or V. The unit with IV or V magnets would give a beefier, more distorted sound with more high end and overall output level. So yes, if you're looking for that early Gibson PAF sound, you probably want to look toward the Alnico II units. Keep in mind though that different pots, caps etc also have an influence and the guitar itself is a factor. Not to mention the amp/effects you use.

Would be great if you could just go "plug-in" different pups and check them out on your own axe and amp setup.

[tweed1]

Gearhead had some great insight on what affects the sound you're looking for. I spent a long time looking at different P90 pickups and found that the two local builders, Jason Lollar and Pete Biltoft had what I was looking for. I've put a Lollar '50s P90 on my Melody Maker and Vintage Vibes (Biltoft) on my Casino. What I liked about the VV PUs was the ability to actually change the magnets. When you buy from him, you get to choose two of the four available magnet types but all four are interchangeable). Since I bought two PUs, I got one of each magnet so that I could experiment. On Pete's suggestion, I even tried flipping the magnets (they're marked for up and down on the polarity) and got a beautiful neck PU tone that almost sounds acoustic, very organic. Magnet types really do change the tone. You might check out his website for info, or even email him. I've found him to be extremely friendly and helpful.

 

Lollar Biltoft, Fralin, etc, all describe what magnet type and k rating (dictated by the number of winds) they use. Ask a few questions of them and you should be able to determine what will work for you. Ask about cover material, too. There's the whole plastic vs metal thing to decide on and it does matter. Also, if you don't rewind, but buy new, be prepared to make (or purchase) shims for the Casino. Since the top is curved and almost every P90 is flat on the bottom, you'll need them. Something that I didn't think about before I pulled the trigger on new PUs. But shims are pretty easy to make.

 

I've mentioned this before, on this whole subject, but I found that raising the stock pickups made a big difference in the sound that they produce. Several outfits sell shims and you might find that just doing that will get you a lot closer to what you what for very little effort and cash outlay. If it wasn't for the neck PU sound I got out of the VV pickups, I would have stayed with the stock ones, raised up. Have fun looking for your sound.

[Pumpkinhead]

Thanks for the info chaps.

 

Gearhead thanks for the overview of the Alnico II/IV/V magnets. I'm aware that given all other factors being equal (wire type and windings) an Alnico V is louder than an Alnico IV etc. What I'm not sure about is the tonal characteristic of the pickups. For example, what does an Alnico II P90 wound to 8k sound like compared to an Alnico IV wound to the same DC resistance (i.e. less turns of wire but more powerful magnet).

 

I'm also interested what was used in the '60s Casinos and ES330s.

 

I was also confused that the Lollar website describes his "50's Wind" pickups as brighter than his stock P90s, yet other builders seem to imply that using an Alnico II makes the sound darker. I suppose it's just down to the interaction of the type of wire use, number of turns etc. in addition to the magnet type?

 

Tweed1 - I'd love to try something like the Biltofts and I agree that the interchangeable magnets are a great innovation! I love the idea of being able to mix and match the Alnico II, III and V magnets to taste. My only problem is that I'm trying to bring this Casino in on a budget and importing from the USA is very expensive once shipping, duty and taxes are added. Maybe in the new year if I have a bit more cash, I might take a chance on a set of three soapbars for my Yamaha TVL.

 

I had a chat with Hayden from Bulldog Pickups last night and I've agreed to send the stock Epiphone pickups to him for a rewind. He's recommending Alnico II neck with maybe an Alnico IV on the bridge. I've heard some of his pickups ('buckers) and they sounded fantastic so I'm probably just going to trust him to come up with something appropriate to my needs.

 

Thanks again.

[bigneil]

Jeepers! i always imagined that sending off pick-ups to be re-wound etc would be really expensive.

[Versatile]

Hi Pump...interesting project you have on the go...

I have a recent ES330 which I am thrilled to bits with

And 'coincidentally' just sold a Peerless Songbird (Casino clone)

Which was beautiful to look at and not much else

Sounds like there are some really good pickup peeps out there....have you spoken to Bare Knuckle at all?

 

Good Luck

 

V

[Fantana]

This really awesome as I've just sent my Casino P90's to Bare Knuckle for a rebuild - I went for Alnico II magnets so I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on yours when you get them back.

 

Keep us posted!

[Pumpkinhead]

Fantana - I believe that Bare Knuckle have done loads of Casino rewinds and their customers are usually very happy with the results!

 

Versatile - I had some bad experiences with two ES330 reissues that I bought and returned. I suppose that put me off and sent me down the Casino route. I'm not saying this guitar is any better than the 330, it's probably not as good - but it does cost a hell of a lot less! I think I actually prefer the deeper set neck that the Casino has - not as good for upper fret access but seems to give a more vintage feel and vibe.

 

BigNeil. It is expensive to get pickups rewound. My research showed it to cost nearly as much as new ones, which I'd have preferred.

 

It's just that the Casino apparently has a funny size neck pickup that's hard to source parts for and it seems impossible to get these parts in the UK. The US guys have some fantastic guys who build great stuff that people can just get off the shelf at good prices. We have to add shipping, plus duty, plus vat (plus sometimes various "administrative fees) to get the same gear. You need to add in the longer delivery times and the fact that, in the event of problems, returns are impractical and warranties don't seem to apply outside the US (you'd have to ship it back for repair and then prove that you'd bought it once already or get charged all over again!).

Given all this, I decided to go with a UK builder for a rewind :)

 

I really wanted an Elitist but the supply of these seems to have dried up in the UK (I asked everywhere) and the prices on the new ones (if they ever arrive) has just jumped up by something like 40% in the last month or two. Hopefully my Peerless Casino with upgraded tuners, wiring and pickups will get me close to that sort of quality at about half the price (equivalent to the recent IBJL models).

[tweed1]

I talked to both Lollar and Biltoft and was surprised that rebuilding stock Casino pickups was nearly, if not the same price as getting new ones custom built (around $100 each). I'd been watching ebay and saw where people were getting $75-$80 a pair for good used stock pickups, so it seemed to make sense, financially, to get new ones ($180 for the set, including extra magnets) and sell my stock ones off. And, I knew that i wanted plastic covers (no desire to make a JL look-a-like and I like the sound of the plastic covers better). But the upside to what you're doing is that you know that they'll set right back in place. Just curious, what are they charging you to rewind the stock PUs? Please keep us posted on how this turns out.

[Pumpkinhead]

I talked to both Lollar and Biltoft and was surprised that rebuilding stock Casino pickups was nearly, if not the same price as getting new ones custom built (around $100 each). I'd been watching ebay and saw where people were getting $75-$80 a pair for good used stock pickups, so it seemed to make sense, financially, to get new ones ($180 for the set, including extra magnets) and sell my stock ones off. And, I knew that i wanted plastic covers (no desire to make a JL look-a-like and I like the sound of the plastic covers better). But the upside to what you're doing is that you know that they'll set right back in place. Just curious, what are they charging you to rewind the stock PUs? Please keep us posted on how this turns out.

 

I suppose, in some ways, rebuilding pickups is more work than making new ones as you've got to disassemble them before starting! I know that the builders are using less parts but they probably buy these in bulk and they're pretty cheap compared to labor costs.

 

Assuming it's OK to mention actual prices here...

 

In the UK, people like Bare Knuckle and Bulldog are charging around GBP85 to rebuild the Casino pickups. A set of regular dogear soapbars from these makers would cost GBP140 or GBP125 respectively. However these will NOT fit the Casino :(

 

By comparison, I think it would cost approximately GBP200 to import a set of Lollars.

 

Even worse is that the official Lollar dealer in the UK is charging GBP140 for a single, standard P90. These cost $100 each on the Lollar website, which is GBP64 at todays rates! That's something like a 119% increase once shipping and the retailers markup has been added.

 

I'll let you know how I get on with the Bulldog rebuild. Hayden is a perfectionist and he's pretty busy so they'll take a few weeks to get back once I send them. I'm in no hurry though and I hope it will be worth the wait.

 

I set myself a budget of GBP200 to get the Casino sorted out. This will cover new pickups, wiring and tuners (Gotoh) as well as a set up (the nut is cut very high). It's looking like I might end up 10-20% over my initial estimate but it will still come in at quite a bit less than an "Inspired By" Casino. I like these but hopefully mine will be at least as good and I rather like the red finish. (Like you I'm not interested in replicating a Beatles Casino. I'm a fan but I think more people might play Casinos if it were not for the association with the fab four. Still, that's a whole new discussion )