worldwidehoodoo Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 greetings, fellow epi-lovers! i have come across what might be a rare specimen. i have no pics, but i may meet this guitar again tonight and will snap some. the guitar in question is a sunburst casino. the back of the headstock has the lennon serial # (32893), but does NOT have the lennon squiggly drawing/logo. the bass side f-hole has the blue kalamazoo tag with lennon's serial, and the treble f-hole has a white tag with the printed (not hand-numbered) serial # 9605****, indicating that the guitar was made in Korea ca. 1996. the white tag does feature the lennon squiggly drawing in addition to the words "limited edition." i'm wondering: was there a lennon casino RI prior to the limited release of 1,965 in the late 90s? if not, could this be a prototype for that release? if it's not a prototype, could this be a japan-only release? the latter seems unlikely given the fact that it's made in korea, but the former seems dubious as well: why give a prototype a serial number? this appears to be a very well-made instrument. the angle of the headstock is very steep, and the holly headstock veneer has the contour routing by the machine heads. this guitar also has fret-edge binding, and it may even have a lacquer finish given the checking behind the nut where the neck transitions to the headstock. the tune-o-matic bridge has plastic saddles. she plays great. any info would be awesome. i'm hoping to acquire this guitar, but i'm not sure what it's worth... thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The.Traffic.Lights Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I have no idea what it is, but are you sure the saddles are plastic? Maybe teflon or tusq instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidehoodoo Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 I have no idea what it is, but are you sure the saddles are plastic? Maybe teflon or tusq instead? i will re-inspect the saddles if i see the seller tonight. the original limited run had nylon saddles, so i suppose it stands to reason that's what this guitar has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 greetings, fellow epi-lovers! i have come across what might be a rare specimen. i have no pics, but i may meet this guitar again tonight and will snap some. the guitar in question is a sunburst casino. the back of the headstock has the lennon serial # (32893), but does NOT have the lennon squiggly drawing/logo. the bass side f-hole has the blue kalamazoo tag with lennon's serial, and the treble f-hole has a white tag with the printed (not hand-numbered) serial # 9605****, indicating that the guitar was made in Korea ca. 1996. the white tag does feature the lennon squiggly drawing in addition to the words "limited edition." If you look closely, you will find an embossed R on the neck of this guitar. It's an over-run of the original limited edition of 1,965 "Assembled in USA" 1965 Casinos. These were made in the event the numbered guitars had to be replaced under warranty, or were damaged in shipment, etc. Since the guitar was ultimately never used for this purpose, it was marked as an over-run by the R, and then assigned a unique serial number, which was applied by sticker to the treble side sound hole label (that number does not indicate the guitar was made in Korea at all). Don't be puzzled by the lack of Lennon cartoon. The "Assembled in the USA" 1965 Casinos had no squigly drawing on the back of the headstock (as they were made to be as-close-to exact duplicates as possible); only the Inspired By models based on them do. This model is a very high quality guitar. It has a vintage-spec 17 and not 14 degree headstock angle, as you noticed, and a nitro and not poly finish, plus USA pots, switches, and pups. The guitar was made in the Terada factory in Japan (where Elitists are/were made), and the electronics and hardware was added in Nashville by (presumably) Gibson. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidehoodoo Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 If you look closely, you will find an embossed R on the neck of this guitar. It's an over-run of the original limited edition of 1,965 "Assembled in USA" 1965 Casinos. These were made in the event the numbered guitars had to be replaced under warranty, or were damaged in shipment, etc. Since the guitar was ultimately never used for this purpose, it was marked as an over-run by the R, and then assigned a unique serial number, which was applied by sticker to the treble side sound hole label (that number does not indicate the guitar was made in Korea at all). Don't be puzzled by the lack of Lennon cartoon. The "Assembled in the USA" 1965 Casinos had no squigly drawing on the back of the headstock (as they were made to be as-close-to exact duplicates as possible); only the Inspired By models based on them do. This model is a very high quality guitar. It has a vintage-spec 17 and not 14 degree headstock angle, as you noticed, and a nitro and not poly finish, plus USA pots, switches, and pups. The guitar was made in the Terada factory in Japan (where Elitists are/were made), and the electronics and hardware was added in Nashville by (presumably) Gibson. Red 333 thanks so much! you are correct, dear sir: there is an embossed R. the owner was an epi endorsee at one point, and he got it through them. weird thing is that he says he got it new in 2005, and that the "R" was added to the headstock as an indicator that the guitar was part of an endorsement. kinda wish you had said something like "it's worthless, give him $200!" final detail: HE ADDED A BIGSBY :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersonic Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Pretty cool stuff. So would one of these models with the "R" embossed on the neck be more valuable than one of the normal ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 thanks so much! you are correct, dear sir: there is an embossed R. the owner was an epi endorsee at one point, and he got it through them. weird thing is that he says he got it new in 2005, and that the "R" was added to the headstock as an indicator that the guitar was part of an endorsement. kinda wish you had said something like "it's worthless, give him $200!" final detail: HE ADDED A BIGSBY :o While regular and IB Casinos are very good guitars, the most comparable in specs, build quality, and performance are the $1799 Elitist (new) and $2299 Gibson ES-300. In that context, the guitar in question may be a very good value, depending on its condition and how it's priced. I wouldn't buy it with the expectation it is collectible, but for its performance. Let us know what you decide. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Red - I would imagine you meant the ES-330. This particular instrument, if priced right, could be a very good buy indeed. Some of these unofficial AIUSA Lennons sold for $999 at closeout, but the regular model generally went for over $2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidehoodoo Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share Posted March 31, 2011 While regular and IB Casinos are very good guitars, the most comparable in specs, build quality, and performance are the $1799 Elitist (new) and $2299 Gibson ES-300. In that context, the guitar in question may be a very good value, depending on its condition and how it's priced. I wouldn't buy it with the expectation it is collectible, but for its performance. Let us know what you decide. Red 333 what does "IB" stand for? in re: collectibility -you are correct. it is not collectable and shouldn't be priced as such. no tags, COA, screen print, or lennon caricature case. furthermore, he added a bisgby. this does arguably make the guitar sound/play better and it was installed quite well. the appeal of those guitars to collectors was that it they were exacting replicas of lennon's, and lennon had no bigsby. harrison, on the other hand also, when you factor in that these things are more or less available new at this point... i remember the original issue of these instruments, and i do recall them being priced between 999-1100. seemed like an unearthly sum to my 19yo self! epi actually held back 48 units of the original 1,965 (24 of each finish.) the factory kept #1 of each, and sent the rest to fullerton vintage in houston in 2005. i spoke to fullerton yesterday, and they told me that MSRP was 15. they didni't remember how much they actually sold them for. so it makes sense that the current owner got his hands on an over-run in 2005. do you nkow what the production details were in terms of being hand or CNC built? did they finish them in japan and then assemble them here? were the pickups wound to lennon's specs or did they just grab whatever p90s gibson were making at that time? thanks so much for helping a newb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersonic Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 what does "IB" stand for? "Inspired By" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Red - I would imagine you meant the ES-330. This particular instrument, if priced right, could be a very good buy indeed. Some of these unofficial AIUSA Lennons sold for $999 at closeout, but the regular model generally went for over $2000. Yeah, ES-330. I type about as well as I play. No, I type better. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidehoodoo Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 Played it again tonight....so great! (sorry for the cell pics) I'm trying to work out a deal with this guy and will hopefully hear from him tonight . This guitar definitely needs a little TLC. Most of the frets are a bit flattened but a few in the first position should be replaced. I have all the tools i need to do the refret myself, but I've never done anything with binding let alone binding nibs . Plenty of repairmen flat out refuse to even attempt to preserve these nibs, and most folks I know feel like they're not even worth preserving unless the guitar is super-valuable. Personally, I enjoy doing fretwork and would dig the challenge. I suppose i could remove the original binding, refret, create new nibs with fresh binding, and color it with a tinted lacquer pen to match the age of the rest of the guitar. I'd also have to spray a coat of clear over the new binding. phew. any way you slice it, it's a HUGE job. Still wanting more info on the pups. They didn't hum much at all when i played it tonight on hard-driven amp. They at least didn't buzz as loudly as my tele (lollar pups) or my dano. They're definitely overwound (not my taste) and very thick sounding, but a lot of the lack of immediate treble/attack could have been due to the old strings. Lack of hum could also mean that they're some type of hum/p90 hyrbrid, but i doubt that. Since this is an attention-needing over-run that's already been modified, i don't have any qualms about changing the pickups....but that's also a weird case because casino p90s are so different in design than all others. I can't get this thing off my mind! Cross your fingers for me, friends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeweyCox Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 That guitar looks great! It almost looks vintage to, could definetly fooled me inte thinking it was… And the burst! the sunburst on a Casino is hard to beat, Doesn't look quite like the burst on any other guitar… but a sunburst finish never looks as good as on a Casino… in my opinion… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Played it again tonight....so great! (sorry for the cell pics) ... a lot of the lack of immediate treble/attack could have been due to the old strings. The corian nut and nylon saddles may have some to do with it too. I've got both Assembled in USA Casinos (the 1965 and Revolution), and I find those materials cause a very quick decay, so the initial attack falls faster and more steeply than on my Elitist Casino, which has a bone nut and steel saddles. The 1965 and Revolution seem to growl more than my Elitist. I would imagine the Bigsby could also account for some difference between the guitar you're auditioning and other Casinos you've played, too. Ask the seller if he changed the pickups. The Gibsons that came with the guitar are excellent, imo, but everybody has different preferences. I've seen partial refret jobs where the nibs were preserved, but I would imagine it's a tough job, especially considering the size of the fretwire used on the Casino and how closely the Japanese luthiers followed their contours--it's like the ends are just touched with paint! The fretwire is much heavier on my ES 335, for instance, and there's way more binding left around the frets (which imagine would make easier to replace frets and preserve the nibs). You could always do a partial refret without preserving them, but replace all the neck binding later and cover the fret ends at some other time. Nice pictures, and nice looking guitar. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozigor Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Red Do you have some genetical umbilical cord connected to Epiphone guitars?? What great info!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozigor Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 what a great guitar as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidehoodoo Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 well, folks.... it appears it is not meant to be at this time as the owner wants around $500 more than i think it's worth...and if i did agree with him on the value i couldn't afford it anyway :( hopefully i'll get it or one like eventually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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