help to find out if my epiphone is not a fake

[Steven Lister]

And how exactly did you determine this? According to you, every single questionable guitar that comes through this forum is an "Epi 3rd" and now an "Epi make-over". Have you seen detailed pics that we arent privy to? Or did you inspect the guitar personally? Because it seems to me that is what it would take to make that kind of assumption. Not a pic of the back of the headstock and a tiny pic of the front. Its like you're hell-bent on propagating rumours that Epiphone is selling guitar bodies through the back door to counterfeiters and every "fake" just happens to be one of these regardless of the proof, or lack thereof. Show your proof or give it a rest. I'm open to either one.

 

 

The serial number cannot be legitimate. Proof? It's apparent to those who've researched Epiphone's numbering methods based on year, model, etc. The other issue is less obvious and, as you alluded, it cannot be confirmed from photos alone. Now I detest fraudsters and will not make further comment that might be used to steal value from Epi players. That is a more valuable service to this site that trying to "show off" knowledge, am I right?

 

BTW what have you done with Robin the Hood?

I miss that guy who used to share and discuss views instead of scoffing at opinions not in line with his own. You don't see me blasting away at your Wiki site (yes it has errors) on this forum. Errors and all it provides another resource that overall is good and adds to the Epi knowledge base. Who of us is perfect? So congratulations on your Wiki and while others may like the new, harsher RTH, I miss ol' Robin the Hood.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on

[RobinTheHood]

The serial number cannot be legitimate. Proof? It's apparent to those who've researched Epiphone's numbering methods based on year, model, etc. The other issue is less obvious and, as you alluded, it cannot be confirmed from photos alone. Now I detest fraudsters and will not make further comment that might be used to steal value from Epi players. That is a more valuable service to this site that trying to "show off" knowledge, am I right?

 

BTW what have you done with Robin the Hood?

I miss that guy who used to share and discuss views instead of scoffing at opinions not in line with his own. You don't see me blasting away at your Wiki site (yes it has errors) on this forum. Errors and all it provides another resource that overall is good and adds to the Epi knowledge base. Who of us is perfect? So congratulations on your Wiki and while others may like the new, harsher RTH, I miss ol' Robin the Hood.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on

I detest the counterfeiters as well, but you are basically calling Epiphone the fraudsters. And though I have no doubt that the things you suggest have happened in some way, you say it about every counterfeit guitar that comes through here as if Epiphone has a hand in all of them. I just dont believe that. Whats worse is that there are people out there who will believe it and spread the rumors. Why is it so hard to believe that actual counterfeiters exist without aid from Epiphone or Epiphone China employees? You are entitled to your opinion, but you present it as fact every time when you dont have proof. The things you say regarding Epiphone's hand in counterfeiting could be very damaging to their reputation. And although I really shouldnt care, for some reason I do. And besides, unless its a rouge employee or group of employees, it doesnt make any sense. Why would Gibson Corp. take pennies on the dollar selling unfit guitar bodies to fakers and potentially miss out on a legitimate sale?

 

I'm not harsher than before. I've actually mellowed out. A lot. I dont scoff at other peoples' opinion and views. But I will get nasty with people that keep trying to spread unfounded rumors or constantly treadsh!t. You dont fall into the latter, so please dont think I was implying that you do. Those are just my criteria for being harsh with people. And it usually takes a few times before I get to that point.

 

Yes, the wiki has errors. I know that all too well. I find them all the time. But the wiki is not my opinion, nor does it attempt to shine a negative light on the brand. I've never said one negative thing about your serial number sticky thread, and furthermore, I find it to be a highly valuable resource. Lets compare apples to apples here, ok? I dont equate your serial thread with your 'opinion as fact' about couterfeits.

 

You say that you miss the old 'RobinTheHood', but you barely participate here anymore unless to chime in about Epi 3rds. There has been a couple of times when you posted just to ruffle feathers. I propose to you that I miss the old Steven Lister that used to be an active member of the forum. A guy that would congratulate people on NGDs and give opinions and info on legit guitars. It seems to me that your only agenda these days is to imply that Epiphone is in collusion with counterfeiters and brag about being on tour. This is why I was harsh with you. And after four years, this is what it finally took to get you to directly respond to me. I dont like arguing with people and I certainly dont like being mean or nasty and creating a spectacle like this. But sometimes I do it out of emotion. Like you, I have my demons to contend with and I suspect that we are more alike than either of us will admit. On that note, I apologize for my harshness and dont wish to argue or be at odds with you. If you bring back the old Steven Lister, I'll bring back the old RobinTheHood and try to use more tact. Not one of my strong points, BTW. I've always considered you a valuable member, even if I dont agree with your stance on counterfeits and the way you present it.

 

As an aside, I didnt change my screen name. The admins did that when they switched to the new format. Any change in personality is completely coincidental. Though I had always felt that my old screen name was a little off-putting and figured that no one here really understood the meaning behind it, so I kept the new one.

 

So, can we be friends? I'm not looking for enemies.

[Steven Lister]

Given RTH's misstatements of my opinions maybe I need to take a moment to clear the air:

 

Nearly every question posted asking, “fake or not?” returns a majority of “fake” replies. Frequently reference is made to how flooded the secondary marketplace (eBay, Kijiji, etc) is with fakes. I don't believe either is generally true.

 

One can imagine a few knock-offs by a guy in a dusty garage somewhere, but a flood of good fakes would require a virtual logistical impossibility --- high dollar equipment, large facility, large stockpiles of wood and hardware, and operational mobility to avoid discovery. But if I'm wrong, and the ghosts really do exist, then my scenario explains how it could function and kept undercover. Flat out I have said over and over “I do not have any proof” --- merely an explanation of circumstantial numbers.

 

Never, ever have I suggested in post(s) that Epi is complicit in any way in the Epi 3rd or EpiMO scenarios (or I would have been banned -- and rightly so – to outer Mongolia until 2525, and that obviously hasn't happened). My scenarios do suggest that Epi needs to review procedures and tighten security at its factories to prevent illegal trade and I have said as much.

 

Further anyone reading into my opinions notions of Epi-conspiracy or Epi-bashing are notions purely of their own doing because I do not hold those opinions or agree with them.

 

The gtgtgt supplied photos appear to me to show an example of an Epi produced guitar that was made-over to appear to be something different from what it was when it left the factory. He says he bought it (“from a trunk” changed later to “on eBay”) at a great low-low price. Okay. I hope it plays great and that he's happy with his bargain.

 

Worst case is we're talking a few quid, guineas, dollars, lira, etc. here. Maybe being burned once trying to score a gem of an Epiphone at below dealer cost will ultimately prove to be a good lesson to some.

 

...oh and RTH, I'm all for peace, love, and understanding!

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on

 

[bigneil]

Arn't we all on the same side here. Non legitimate Epiphones Exist, it's a fact. Do any of us have proof of their origins? No. So what can we do to fight the supply of fake/illegitimate epiphones? Work as a team to educate people about their existence and what measures they can take to avoid getting stung without being patronizing or condescending to those who have been caught out.

 

 

Is the Gold top featured in this thread an illegitimate one....cant tell without some really good photo's.

[RobinTheHood]

One can imagine a few knock-offs by a guy in a dusty garage somewhere, but a flood of good fakes would require a virtual logistical impossibility --- high dollar equipment, large facility, large stockpiles of wood and hardware, and operational mobility to avoid discovery. But if I'm wrong, and the ghosts really do exist, then my scenario explains how it could function and kept undercover. Flat out I have said over and over "I do not have any proof" --- merely an explanation of circumstantial numbers.

 

I get what you are saying here, but you have to remember that China has cornered the market on counterfeit EVERYTHING for decades. I dont think they are worried about operational mobility and I dont think they need a large facility either. They arent churning out fakes by the tens of thousands (i dont think, anyway). The Chinese government turns a blind eye to this type of activity for the most part anyway. I agree that Epiphone China should try to tighten their security, or try to find out where exactly these fakes are coming from.

 

The stockpiles of wood and the equipment are another thing though, and you definitiely have a point with that. Even though there are far less numbers of counterfeits than legitimate guitars, sneaking the materials out would seem like a logistical nightmare in itself. I suppose we could entertain the idea that they are made in-house in a "back room" of the plant or something, but at that point you would think that the guitars would be a little more "correct" in areas that make them indentifiable as fakes.

 

The gtgtgt supplied photos appear to me to show an example of an Epi produced guitar that was made-over to appear to be something different from what it was when it left the factory.

I'm not sure why you think this about this particular guitar. Looking at the back of the headstock tells me that it wasnt a guitar fit to leave the factory if it was actually made by Epiphone in the first place. They would have scrapped it...the neck at least. Without giving too much away, the hole positions are jank.

 

Thanks for clearing up your position on counterfeits and your theory on 3rds. Like Bigneil said, we are all on the same side and sometimes I lose sight of that. I can be very passionate about things like this. Its silly, I know.

[Barcham]

One thing that people seem to ignore is the fact that the Gibson/Epiphone factory isn't exactly the only guitar factory in China or Asia. There are factories that used to turn out Epi guitars that no longer do due to the opening of Qingdao. It is entirely possible that some of these factories are now in the copy business to make up for the lost income and seeing as they no longer have to go through an Epiphone inspection process, they really don't take too much care in turning out a quality product. They probably have an easier time getting rid of their poor quality guitars by slapping an Epi logo on them than some mystery brand. People ask why they don't just turn them into fake Gibsons instead, well Gibbys have a nitro finish and that takes a hell of a lot more time and money to get right than a poly finish does and if they try to sell fake Gibbys with a poly finish, they won't have much luck.

 

One of my clients goes to China on business a couple of times a year and he sees everything from fake guitars to clothing to high end golf clubs being offered at a fraction of the price of the real thing. None of these products approaches the quality of the real thing. china is not the Us or any other Western country and they do not have the same laws or enforcement. Entire factories are dedicated to doing nothing but producing fake products and there is little anyone can do about it. Just ask Microsoft, one of the biggest and most powerful companies in the world who can do absolutely about the piracy situation in Cnina where 95 out of 100 copies of MS software sold are counterfeit.

 

Insinuating that fakes come from any Gibson owned or controlled factory in any way, is irresponsible and very detrimental to the Epiphone brand. Gibson is well aware of the problem with fake Epis and I am sure they have all the necessary precautions and security in place to make sure that their factory and partners have nothing to do with the fake guitar industry.