pippy Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Hello P. and Bence, just for curiosity: How did the capacitances of the former and the actual capacitors read by measurement? Did you change circuitry, or just swap the caps? Cheers, capmaster Hello capmaster. Unfortunately I don't have a multimeter (or anything similar) so am therefore unable to determine the actual readings from the four caps in question. They are all meant to be 0.022 uf. The only difference in spec which I've found is that the PIOs are 400v as opposed to the 250v of the 3M ceramics. I've been told that both voltages are so far within the limits of use that this difference can be dismissed as regards the subsequent tonal shift. The original wiring path was retained. I understand your disbelief in the change of tone, capmaster. As I've mentioned previously, I myself was very sceptical of there being any real difference in the operation of two different types of - but identically rated - caps. Had it not been for the fact that a friend had a pair of PIO 'Grey Tigers' going spare I'd never have been tempted to try the swap at all. I was persuaded that it might be a worthwhile ten minute excercise. And it's undeniable that a considerable change was the net result. For a while now I've been having discussions with members in a couple of fora to try to work out why this difference has come about. No-one has been able to come up with a definitive, incontrovertible answer. Incidentally, I've been playing guitar for 36 years and have owned LPs - on and off - for 30 of those. The guitar in question is one I've had for a number of years and I know how it sounds. I never use FX pedals and have been using the same amp - exclusively - since 1980. I know my equipment very, very well. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 Hello Capmaster! To be honest I didn't checked them either. The originals were stated 0.022 micro-Farad, just like the new AMPOHM PIOs. Nothing else have been changed on the guitar... As I mentioned a several times before my father did all the work, and He was very skeptical about it too. He later admited He was wrong. Unfortunately I am not skilled in this territory, so I cannot recall what does He suspect as another tone-defining factor that wasn't considered by Him before He stated what He did prior to swapping. Anyways, the difference in tone is undeniable. Cheers... Bence P.S.: If I can find the original caps, I will measure them, and the PIOs for You on the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Hello P. and Bence, thank you for your replies. There is no way to find out anything by listening since we all do this with embarassement and have our prejudices, if we like them or not. Many people tell me to be a pure techie guy since over thirty years, but you can't even compare the second recording made of the very same musician playing the very same part on the very same instrument immediately after the first one. The only approach to an obejective proof is measurement. This means e. g. setting up a pickup in parallel with different capacitors under test which are evaluated themselves, and to measure periodical and step function response of these LC circuits. There could be applied sine waves, sine bursts, sweep signals, and recorded real musical signals, too. You will have to avoid any other electromagnetical interference in the setup. Only this procedure excludes any subjective influence. I often experienced that people heard differences where were definitely none except within themselves, and others who thought the new strings were bad, the amp defective, or they were just in a bad condition themselves that day. In most cases, I found out they only had changed the instrument cable, or had an FX with true bypass in use so that their guitar was loaded down by a different cable capacitance of twice the usual one. Remember these differences are only due to capacitance value. By the way, changing capacitances cause cracking and sizzling noises. Since decades, I buy my guitar cables using a capacitance tester. I experienced that they changed their suppliers without notice, and then you find your sound altered unintentionally. I don't want to run that risk no more since a long time. It's all good, I don't want to hurt no one including myself, but my separate precision capacitance tester is in regular use, and it saved me a multiple of the money it had costed in the early 1980s. Have fun! capmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Not that I'm an expert at anything (ask my wife; she doesn't think I know anything ) only thing I can think of CapMaster is by you constantly going with the same capacitance and resistance levels is you could be missing tonal bliss by a combined LRC circuit. I'm just guessing but maybe there is a combination that takes away or adds something the may make you go wow, instead you've missed it. just saying.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 There is no way to find out anything by listening since we all do this with embarassement and have our prejudices, Excuse me? Are you, in all seriousness, trying to say I cannot tell the difference in the sound produced by one particular, and well-known to me, guitar from one minute to the next? That's an insult. Perhaps you can't with yours - assuming you can play at all. I can. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 Hello Capmaster! I respect Your skills as an electro-technician, but this time You're wrong. The difference is significant after the cap swap. We are neither mentally damaged people here, nor deaf. Probably You should try it Yourself. As I said many-many times, my father thought the same. Now He is totally convinced (which is an important fact since He is not a musician, who has a more refined hearing, and the most skeptical person on Earth :))... Why would highly appreciated companies produce new PIOs, designed strictly for audio use, if they are out-dated? Why would high-end audio companies use those if they weren't better? Please don't take this as an offense. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 "...The only approach to an objective proof is measurement..." Incorrect. Measurement merely gives the operator the degree of change expressed as data. Do you think that only through measurement can any tonal difference be noticed? Do you think only scientific equipment designed for the job can discern any tonal change between different instruments? Do you consider the human ear to be incapable of distinguishing any difference, with any degree of reliability or impartiality, between (say) a Strat and a Les Paul (or two Les Pauls for that matter)? If you have answered 'yes' to any of these questions then (IMHO) you are a fool. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Hello, by the way, the cap- in my nickname has nothing to do with any electrical component but just with how my names are due to my parents. The -master is about my dedication to a CD mastering process which retains most of the very substance of the music. I strongly dislike the infamous loudness race. Perhaps I try again talking about the things I did to the circuits of my own electric guitars. There are three of them with altered tone control capacitors. I changed the originals varying between 22 nF and 50 nF to new ones between 4.7 nF and 6.8 nF, partially ceramic disc, partially styroflex types. Additionally, I equipped these three guitars with a volume pot tap cap from the hot to the center tab which ranges from 220 pF to 270 pF, ceramic discs in all cases. One of them three guitars had 300 kOhms volume, and 100 kOhms (!) tone pots, another one had 250 kOhms volume and tone pots originally. I changed them all to 500 kOhms, to my desire lin and log ones. My guide are listening tests since decades, I know very well why I did this, and I know for sure that varying humidity, and so both varying capacitance and resistance in the textile Gibson pickup cable insulations does a hell of a lot to the sound. Exchanging capacitors with very exactly (below 1% deviation) the same values but with different linear-reacting (no tantalium caps, please!) dielectric material is making or spending money, depending on the point of view. Making of any caps, or of anything made anyhow does happen just for selling them, so everybody may buy to one's own taste as long it doesn't hurt someone else. I totally redesigned the circuit of an off-brand guitar that I used fourteen years for pickup comparisons only. It is in an electrically unchanged state since about sixteen years, and I use it for string comparisons. There are PIO, styroflex, and ceramic caps in it, but this is just an accidental state of experimenting frozen the time my son was born. With best regards, capmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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