ES-345 Tuning Issues

[DanHooper]

Hello, recently bought an Epiphone ES-345, starting to think I've got a bit of a dud. At first I noticed that the finish had gone over the binding a bit at one of the cutaways and that inside both F-holes the finish was very rough and sticky to touch. I spoke to the store I bought it from and they agreed to refund 10% of the price. Anyway I've had it for 3 days now and the damn thing will not stay in tune! It's very frustrating. Could something as simple as a new set of strings and a set up sort this issue out or should I get rid? Cheers

[Greybeard]

Hello, recently bought an Epiphone ES-345, starting to think I've got a bit of a dud. At first I noticed that the finish had gone over the binding a bit at one of the cutaways and that inside both F-holes the finish was very rough and sticky to touch. I spoke to the store I bought it from and they agreed to refund 10% of the price. Anyway I've had it for 3 days now and the damn thing will not stay in tune! It's very frustrating. Could something as simple as a new set of strings and a set up sort this issue out or should I get rid? Cheers

 

 

If you've never owned a guitar with a Bixby you may just be having the usual "getting used to it" experience. I also have the EPI ES-345 and saw that too. I put some locking tuners and a roller bridge on mine just last month and it has pretty much solved the tuning problem. I also changed the strings it came with to some Ernie Ball Cobalt strings and that also seems to have helped the situation. One other simple thing to do is to try some graphite on the nut. If the strings are binding in the nut slots that could also add to your tuning problems. I also changed the pickups, pots, and caps but that was not related to the tuning problem. Right now I really am happy with the upgrades to the guitar. Its a very nice platform to work with once you get it to the place you want it.

[brad1]

Definitely put on new strings. If you don't pre-stretch them, then make sure you give them a day or so to settle in.

 

Also, check the slots in the nut. They could be binding some strings. Use graphite from a pencil if needed, or enlarge slot.

If it came with a plastic nut, you may want to look into putting a TUSQ nut, or something similar.

[Gunner]

+1 on the nut and new strings. A roller bridge may help some too, but not essential. The stock tuners are fine.

[Alan7140]

The Bigsby was mounted crookedly on my ES-345, causing low E to cross under the string depresser bar right on the edge at the nylon washer. This caused low E to bind. Straightening it according to the Bigsby mounting instructions (fit both low & high E strings & tune to concert pitch, then drill the two top screw holes) fixed the misalignment, and revealed that the factory had drilled the holes with only low E fitted and tuned - with high E slack or not fitted the factory holes lined up perfectly with the Bigsby holes - in the crooked position.

 

The plastic nut was also binding badly on the G & B string slots in particular, and any bend of those strings, whether by Bigsby or by finger sent the guitar out of tune. A Tusq graphite nut along with the Bigsby realignment completely cured the problem. The guitar stays perfectly in tune even when using the Bigsby, and with the standard Tune-O-Matic bridge still fitted.

 

Lastly, I did not refit the old strings, so the new curt mangan 10-46 strings I fitted might also have something to do with this. The standard factory strings were atrocious, no other word to describe them. By contrast the curt mangan strings are the slickest round-wounds I've ever used.

[Pin]

If you've never owned a guitar with a Bixby you may just be having the usual "getting used to it" experience. I also have the EPI ES-345 and saw that too. I put some locking tuners and a roller bridge on mine just last month and it has pretty much solved the tuning problem. I also changed the strings it came with to some Ernie Ball Cobalt strings and that also seems to have helped the situation. One other simple thing to do is to try some graphite on the nut. If the strings are binding in the nut slots that could also add to your tuning problems. I also changed the pickups, pots, and caps but that was not related to the tuning problem. Right now I really am happy with the upgrades to the guitar. Its a very nice platform to work with once you get it to the place you want it.

 

Just as a matter of interest Greybeard, what did you change your pickups to? Do the news ones work ok with the varitone?

[vaxxine]

If you've never owned a guitar with a Bixby you may ....

 

In fact, nobody has ever owned a guitar with a 'Bixby'......

 

I've had 2 guitars with Bigsbys on them and I had no problems with them staying in tune.

[disaster]

Based on lots of experience with new electrics I'd first suspect the intonation. You'll need to find a very good luthier or a VERY good tuner if you want to fix this yourself. The Vibrato doesn't help matters - the movement of the vibrato mechanism causes the strings to slide over the bridge saddles and in order to remain in tune the strings MUST return to the EXACT same postition after releasing the vibrato. Just the nature of the beast.

 

Try this experiment: Tune the guitar and leave the vibrato alone. Play something restricting your notes to the 1st 5 frets. Then play the same thing restricting your notes from the 12th to the 17th frets. If the guitar sounds in tune in the lower octave but not the upper octave I'm betting intonation is the problem.

 

Since acoustics don't have adjustable saddles they don't suffer this indignity. I have found it to be the bane of electrics. It is especially true of new guitars because they have never been adjusted for intonation, at least none of the new electrics I have encountered.

 

I haven't been able to find a sensitive enough tuner to properly set the intonation by machine, but if anyone has a tried & true recommendation I'm listening. I have to do a lot of fiddling around by ear to get it right, and I have a tin ear. But I also stay away from the vibrato equipped guitars. If you can find a very good luthier with a VERY good ear they should be able to fix this very quickly & inexpensively. It will also introduce you to a good luthier, every guitarists best friend.

 

Good Luck

[DanHooper]

Firstly thank you everybody for your responses, much appreciated. in terms of being used to the bigsby, my SG has stayed in tune perfectly for forty one years as far as I am aware. I've not had an issue whilst I've had it. That intonation seems to be set pretty well on the guitar and the neck is straight enough. I think giving the nut some attention may solve the problem. In terms of adding a roller bridge, that's something I might bear in mind if the nut adjustment dosen't work. Cheers

[Alan7140]

Before you go putting a roller bridge onto the guitar (which will probably deaden the tone a bit), analyze how you're going to be using your Bigsby. Granted I didn't know Mr Bigsby himself so can't say the following with first-hand knowledge, but the unit is correctly labelled as "vibrato" (as in what BB does with his wrist & fingers, only with the Bigsby dropping rather than raising the pitch), and on the face of it is not designed in the same manner as whammy bars like those in a Fender where the whole bridge & string mount pivots and the strings can be pulled backwards and forwards to raise and lower pitch without sliding over anything other than the nut. If that's what you want to do, this is the wrong setup to do it with. The flat bar alone is a giveaway to the Bigsby's intended use, namely tapping it with fingers or the bar positioned under the ball of the palm and pressed on cyclically to drop from and return the string to pitch rapidly. It is not designed to be grabbed and hauled on. A further clue to this is the spring - it is set up to work under compression only and return the bar forcefully to its rest position. It will not pull the bar downwards from a raised position - only the tension of the strings will do that and this is obviously a recipe for erratic behaviour in returning to pitch. In fact, if you pull the bar upwards (raise pitch) hard enough, the spring will probably fall out.

 

There are variations of the Bigsby that are better set up for this haul-and depress action (as with the "Chet handle", most notably), and these will ideally have a different bridge setup.

 

The pinned Locktone Tune-o-Matic bridge bar on the Epi ES-345 is designed with enough slack in the post holes to pivot forward and back slightly with the base held firmly in position, good for about a quarter tone pitch change without the strings moving over the saddles. Used in this way I'd consider the full 1/4 tone drop to be considered "heavy" use of the Bigsby, 1/8 or less is perfectly sufficient for the effect. Go ahead and try it, you'll see the bridge bar moving like this with lighter pressures on the vibrato bar.

 

If you use the Bigsby in the above manner, then the nut is the only thing the strings will slide through, and a graphite nut will provide the best-priced remedy to the sticky plastic nut that comes with the guitar. The nut itself is not hard to fit, although the base of the Graph Tech Tusq nut I fitted to my ES-345 was thinner than the original so I had to make a thin plastic shim to fit between it and the headstock nameplate so that it was tight and wouldn't move upwards towards the tuners when winding on the strings. Some may disagree with the following, but I left the shallow string grooves as they came from the manufacturer and fitted the nut to height by gradually sanding down the base. This way the strings do not sit into the grooves so deep as if I had filed them down instead, and thus they have less nut contact to cause them to bind, even though the graphite is incredibly slick. The standard grooves are deep enough so that the strings do not hop out of them with enthusiastic string bending, either. Being made for an ES guitar, the radius of the nut was correct so all the strings were their correct relative heights over the first fret & did not buzz.

 

I posted a picture of the guitar on the following linked thread if you're interested in seeing how the mods, including the pickup swap, turned out: http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/93630-why-buy-a-new-chinese-built-epiphone/page__view__findpost__p__1277060

[Greybeard]

Just as a matter of interest Greybeard, what did you change your pickups to? Do the news ones work ok with the varitone?

 

 

I used a Gibson Classic 57 and a Classic 57 plus. They work fine with the Varitone. Seems like I'm getting more volume out of it without any change in the amp settings. Its hard to describe the change in the tone. Words like warmth and deep come to mind but I'm not sure that conveys it exactly.

[Greybeard]

In fact, nobody has ever owned a guitar with a 'Bixby'......

 

I've had 2 guitars with Bigsbys on them and I had no problems with them staying in tune.

 

 

"Bixby" is what happens when you spell like you talk. :-)

[Pin]

I used a Gibson Classic 57 and a Classic 57 plus. They work fine with the Varitone. Seems like I'm getting more volume out of it without any change in the amp settings. Its hard to describe the change in the tone. Words like warmth and deep come to mind but I'm not sure that conveys it exactly.

 

Cheers, thanks for that. I've been toying with the idea of changing to Seymour Duncan PAFs but there is a logic which says go with Gibson. Presumably, these must be four conductor versions you installed.

[Greybeard]

Cheers, thanks for that. I've been toying with the idea of changing to Seymour Duncan PAFs but there is a logic which says go with Gibson. Presumably, these must be four conductor versions you installed.

 

 

No, they were just two conductor pickups. The pickups that were originally in the guitar are also two conductor pickups.

[Greybeard]

+1 on the nut and new strings. A roller bridge may help some too, but not essential. The stock tuners are fine.

 

 

Just let me say that I do agree with the assessment that the stock tuners are fine. I changed the tuners because from the time I came across my first guitar with locking tuners, I have set up all the guitars that came after that with them. That's a personal preference and I am of the opinion that it helps the guitar stay in tune better since they positively hold the string and take less winding.

 

I did all of the upgrades to this ES-345 because I was disappointed in the quality of the electrical components due to an early failure of the input jack. Once I got into it it became a complete rebuild/upgrade to get everything I wanted out of it. As for the roller bridge, I think that helped the tuning problem the most but changing strings probably made a positive difference too. Changing strings on any new guitar is also a standard practice with me since I'm probably no different than anyone who has a favorite brand of strings that they like to play.

 

I've attempted to show the tuners and bridge on the guitar but I'm not sure if the pictures are attached. Both the bridge and tuners are from a company called Tonepro.

[Pin]

No, they were just two conductor pickups. The pickups that were originally in the guitar are also two conductor pickups.

 

That astonishes me as I had just assumed that the varitone worked in "some kind" of way analagous to a coil splitting switch. Obviously, it really is altogether different - pure (presumably)resistance device.

 

Still, now I know that it makes things cheaper and generally easier to get.

 

Thanks once more Greybeard.

[Greybeard]

That astonishes me as I had just assumed that the varitone worked in "some kind" of way analagous to a coil splitting switch. Obviously, it really is altogether different - pure (presumably)resistance device.

 

Still, now I know that it makes things cheaper and generally easier to get.

 

Thanks once more Greybeard.

 

 

No problem. By the way, before I got into doing all the mods, I wrote to Epi asking for a schematic for this guitar. A nice fellow named Benton Cummings responded with the info pretty quickly. His email address is

Benton.Cummings@gibson.com

I have a pdf file of the schematic but I obviously don't know how to attach things to this forum since I see that my pictures didn't make it in one of my previous replys.

[Greybeard]

That astonishes me as I had just assumed that the varitone worked in "some kind" of way analagous to a coil splitting switch. Obviously, it really is altogether different - pure (presumably)resistance device.

 

Still, now I know that it makes things cheaper and generally easier to get.

 

Thanks once more Greybeard.

 

 

Just another thought on the Varitone....it consists of two coils and ten capacitors. Each pickup goes through one coil and the selector switch gives you a different capacitance as you run through the numbers. So what it is doing is giving you five different frequency filters for the different sounds you get out of the guitar. Position 1 is a bypass and each of the other positions just cuts 5 different sections of the available frequencies that the pickups can carry.