jonnyg Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 None of the bolt neck MIJ models had serial numbers either. It kind of makes sense that if you're going to start putting them on you start with a logical number, and 0 for '80 / 1 for '81 etc makes sense. Gives you ten clear years before you have to think up another system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 None of the bolt neck MIJ models had serial numbers either. It kind of makes sense that if you're going to start putting them on you start with a logical number, and 0 for '80 / 1 for '81 etc makes sense. Gives you ten clear years before you have to think up another system. Agreed, but those bolt-neck models were pretty much crap (EA-250) and can't even be compared to the gorgeous Riviera shown above with the set neck. I think, if I may be so bold, that it is safe to say that during the turmoil of the Norlin ownership, inconsistencies in production were the norm. It would be great if the model numbering, factory records and distribution occurred in a systematic, orderly fashion but they didn't, and now with passage of time it's even more blurry. That's why I cut Carter and Rob a lot of slack when it come to dating. The exact provenance of these guitars may never be fully accounted for. This has certainly been my experience with the Genesis, which some folks still claim were made in Japan when every shred of evidence points to manufacture in Taiwan with the exception of a handful of prototypes built for Jim Walker by Shiro Arai at Aria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I have different idea about this. I'm thinking that these guitars were leftover bodies from the JDM Rivieras and the neck and body were probably preassembled. Like the EA series, they might not have had serials on the headstock. They might have been on the tag at that time. With the bodies already preassembled, they may not have wanted to stamp them, so they put 79 in the pickup cavity and marked the tenon with a sku or something. The JDM Rivieras were just structurally as good as the 1980-84 models. Maybe moreso. I dont cut Carter slack on this because these date are not that hard to figure out. There was the JDM run from 1975-1979 and then the run from 1980-1984. Alot of those guitars crossed over. Some didnt. If he didnt want to do the research, he could just as easily generalized by saying "early 1980's" or something to that effect, instead of putting a definitive, albiet wrong, date in print as an authority on the subject. The guitars are out there and the info isnt hard to find if you are looking for it. These are the gray areas of Epiphone's history that need to be defined. Not more inaccurate info that blurs the lines even further. You have to understand why this upsets me, Brian. The whole point of the wiki is to correct the innaccuracies as much as possible. Who are people going to trust when it comes to this type of stuff? Me or Walter Carter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I think it depends on how much a person is willing to commit to researching the manufacturer and guitar. In Carter's case, he needed to write a book that appeals to broad audience who may or may not care about some of the specifics that we do. He has to sell a certain amount of books to break even, so he can't go to the depths that one might hope for in a "definitive" work. I don't hold that against him, he's got more information on Gibson than anyone on the planet except maybe Henry J and a few others who are not professional writers, so more power to him. If I had his knowledge, I'd do the same thing. Don't forget that not everyone is going to shell out $20 for some obscure guitar history book, and it will likely be out of print in 5 years just like his previous work which is going for as much as $200 on eBay now. You on the other hand are compiling an online reference bible that will live on indefinitely. Anyone with access to the Internet can peruse your server (so long as you keep it up) so your site is far more likely to be used by buyers and sellers from now until whenever. That's a far greater responsibility and I can certainly sympathize with your concern. It's got to be even more annoying because you haven't monetized the site so you are providing all your work and this instant access service for free. The annual Blue Book and Vintage Guitar Guide series are full of mistakes too (I should know, I had to rewrite the entire Genesis section for the BB). To put it in perspective, those publications are lucky to sell a few thousand editions per year, while the Epi Wiki will get that many or more per month and eventually per week. So my advice is don't sweat the Carter book, it just adds to the vintage Epiphone mystique and amplifies the value of your work. I don't think of it as an "Us vs.Them" thing so much as a complimentary (if somewhat conflicting) account of information we are all passionate about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clanky44 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Charlie's Riviera has 15-012 stamped in the pup cavity, it looks like the one I saw this past weekend has 15-103 stamped,... just how limited was this run?!? edit,... boy do I need to get my eyes checked out,... all three guitars have the same stamping on the inside of the pup cavity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Yeah. maybe I'm being a little too passionate at the moment. The wiki has been down for three weeks and maybe I'm getting a little antsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Check this ebay listing out. Scroll down the page, as the listing has ended. Read what the seller says about the guitar below the Auctiva pics. http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557 Well that's an interesting and highly plausible explanation. But I am shocked that it sold for $658, what a schmuck I am for not seeing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmanoli98 Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 Here are some pics of the guitar that started this debate. I find it stunning that Gibson has no information about these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Here are some pics of the guitar that started this debate. I find it stunning that Gibson has no information about these. Gibson/Epiphone wasnt very good at keeping records back then. It may have had something to do with Norlin not really caring about Epiphone all that much. Remember, Norlin was the company that took Epiphone, as a higher end manufacturer, and decimated their image to little more than a garbage guitar manufacturer even though there were quite a few great models. Norlin made all of the high end stuff for the Japanese Domestic Market only, and exported mostly low end product until 1980. There were some exceptions here and there, but ultimatley they destroyed Epiphone's reputation. I cant see Norlin caring much about keeping detailed records of these guitars outside of the accounting department. Norlin also screwed up Gibson pretty badly as well. Its not surprising that there are little to no records of these guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmanoli98 Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 I took a second look at the ebay link you passed along. Looking at the numbering on the neck under the pup. That is exact same number(15-012)under the pup on my Epi. Only difference is I have "7" handwritten in what looks lke a blue sharpie and not a "79" as is on the sellers. Which makes me think that is not the year it was made as the seller indicated. But I at this point I am not sure of anything! I do appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. You guys have been great with providing info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hard to tell with that. Its the most plausible explaination at this point, considering we've seen several other models with the 79 marked on them. I also still think that the numbers on the tenon are some kind of sku or model identification. Remember, these were marked and put together by Japanese workers that may or may not have been all that farmiliar with English alphanumerical characters. It could have been a "new hire" or someone that was in a hurry or a number of other things. A 7 instead of a 79 might have been good enough for ID purposes considering that these were most likely leftover bodies and the next run would have a stamped serial on the headstock. I've seen several inconsistencies and translation errors on older Japanese Epiphone labels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 What Rob said, in the early 80's Norlin was selling off the various CMI companies of which Gibson was one. They had no interest or passion for music, musicians or instruments, it was just a foundering business unit to them. They were trying to sell Gibson for $15 million, but Henry J got it for 5. Good for him; whether you like what he's done with company or not, he and his partners (and Jim Rosenberg among others) have rescued the brand and made Gibson and Epiphone profitable, viable, and arguably the most recognizable brand in the music business. The main thing is that these early 80's MIJ and JDM Epiphones are incredibly well-made guitars and worth owning. I was just noodling on my Emperor last night and I still marvel at what an outstanding instrument it is. Keep your Riviera Charlie, it's a rare, underrated gem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmanoli98 Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 That seems to be the smart thing to do at this point Brian. I think I will put some fresh stings on it and give it a little polish and show it some love!!! I can't thank you guys enough for the information you have provdided. It's great to know that there are people out there that share this passion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Yeah, love or hate Henry J, he fixed a lot of damage that Norlin did. And Jim Rosenberg has taken Epiphone, as an Asian import brand, to the next level and then some. A lot of people still complain about what Gibson did to Epiphone, but that isnt Henry or Jim's fault. They basically took Norlin's turd and found a gold nugget in the center. Yeah, I know. That was a gross analogy. But its true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellercasino Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 The guitar in question is not a domestic market Riviera. It is the early export model made between 1980 and 1982. They did sell them in Japan but also for the US market. I believe a few came to Europe but through indirect import by some dealers rather than an official epiphone network.the 79 in the pickup cavity is the quality inspectors number not the year of manufacture. As for the missing serial number I suppose it is open for debate. I have seen a domestic market Riviera with no serial number but it is very rare for it to be missing. As far as I am aware no matsumoku archtops had the serial on the inside label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Well. #79 must have been a very busy man, because that number seems to be pretty common among the non-serialed models. As well, these non-serialed imports dont appear to be all that uncommon at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellercasino Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Not really. There would not have been many units coming off the line each day as these guitars were pretty much hand made and finished. I am only going off what I have seen and read. I have seen epiphones with mid 80s serial numbers and the cavity numbers in the 70s. As there is such little documented evidence with regard to the matsumoku epiphones it really is a bit of a guessing game when it comes to the smaller details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I would recommend ordering Carter's new book and reading pages 64-75 "The Norlin Import Era: 1970-1985". It fills in a lot of the missing corporate Gibson/Epiphone history, including some annual shipping quantities, model numbers, price ranges, factory locations and notable personnel. It does not get down to serial number level, but it does clarify what was going on in the corporation and why it was so chaotic during those years, especially '79 to '85. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyg Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Fair enough. Perhaps we need to start working on our own book.... I'd be onboard with that. That's not such a pipe dream these days. It seems pretty easy to do with companies like LULU. As a Reaper user (unashamed plug) I bought the printed manual from LULU, even though it's a free PDF download from the Reaper site, because for around £15.00 it's a no brainer. Given that you've got most of the groundwork covered with your excellent Wiki, putting it into book form may not be such a huge task, although I know nothing about doing it of course. I'd not only buy a copy but I would be happy to contribute something towards whatever the initial setup costs would be. If others contributed it wouldn't be so hard to get off the ground and the profits, if any, would go to you for your work. Worth thinking about anyway. I bought the Walter Carter book yesterday so up to now I've only skipped through it. However, looking at the specs/availability of the Riviera on page 157 the book states, Riviera second version 1982-1985, 1994-2010 "..........6-saddle tune-o-matic bridge on wooden base, Frequensator tailpiece (not stamped "Frequensator")" I know with absolute certainty that my own Riviera is from 1983. I bought it new on August 13 1983 for £250.00 including a hard case. It has neither a "6-saddle tune-o-matic bridge on wooden base" or a "Frequensator tailpiece". I would also suggest that his assumption that Rivieras were not available between '85 and '94 is incorrect. They were certainly available in the UK, albeit not widely available. I clearly remember seeing a blonde Riviera for sale in a music shop in Essex around '88. Although it was 'similar' to the earlier models like my own (full size HBs - stop tailpiece) there were many differences. The body shape, neck profile and neck binding being the most obvious. But the thing I remember most clearly was that it was the most anaemic looking 'blonde' guitar I've ever seen. I mean, this guitar was UGLY, and you don't forget things like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgrasso Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 As a member here since 08, and my first Epiphone being a '71 EA-250 (I was 13 and it was affordable) my love for all things Epiphone is obvious. I have to say that members like Rob and Brian (many others too) that keep me coming back and being involved with this forum. This thread especially. Nothing better on a snowy Saturday than reading up on Epiphone's history with pictures to boot. Rob, your work on the Wiki is priceless. Best resource(before the crash, and I hope it does not take you long to get it back to where it was) on the web or in print. We know there will always be some questions that won't be answered, but the more you connect the dots, the more concise the history becomes.Especially the anomalies. Which I think should be presented as such until more information, if possible, is available. I also think you should right a book Rob. I might not be able to contribute a large amount of funds, but I would be interested in contributing to the effort, and the Wiki. You decide to move forward with anything or need help, just ask. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 What Carter calls "second version" Rivieras are actually 3rd generation. As we all know, prior to these Rivieras were the JDMs that had split parallelograms inlays and stopbar/tailpiece bridges. Maybe he isnt counting the JDMs because they werent imported? Or maybe he just doesnt know about them. Idont know. I do know that the info is incorrect. Again. As far as these 3rd gen Rivieras, they came in both frequensater and stopbar/tailpiece flavors. I dont know the criteria determniing when, why or for whom, but I know that they came both ways. I was apparently wrong about the numbers in the cavity. At least we got that much sorted out. Now I'm just curious as to why there were some unserialed models. I still think that they were probably early models, maybe before the serial system was in place. I go after these smaller details because, for one, its fun and secondly because we get people asking about them from time to time and I like to at least have a general idea of what to tell people. I get emails through the wiki from people asking about little details pertaining to their guitars as well. Thank you to everyone in this thread that has added to the discussion and helped to hammer this out. This info is priceless to me. As for writing a book, that would be cool. I'm not really sure how to go about such an endeavor, and I'm a pretty sucky writer to boot. I think that moreso than money, I would need people who know how to put something like this together. It would have to be unique, as in, not being just another Epiphone History book because that has been done. Maybe a pocketwiki, or The Complete Epiphone Guitar Book or something like that. I think that if we were to put come up with something really good and put it together in a complete digital format, we could probably find an investor or someone to fund it. Not sure how that works either, to be honest. Its a great idea though, and I think it is worth looking into. But first things first,. The wiki needs tobe back online. I know that Sjael is working on it at the moment, so it s just a matter of time to let him do what he does. No worries. Mark, I totally agree with you about topics like this keeping us here. Its threads like this that I truly miss about this place. They seem few and far between these days, but I've really enjoyed participating in this discussion. I was thinking the exact same thing last night while reading this. Its like the old days, minus a few great people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I wonder if some of the conflicting information about Epi models from the '80s can be attributed to the use of multiple factories in Korea & slight variations based on the factory of origin, or the market destination of the instrument. Also to further muddy the waters, I would imagine there were NOS Japanese-made products hanging around for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimiMann Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hey guys, this is my first post and it seemed like the ideal thread to talk about my 1983 Matsumoku Epiphone Casino. I'm looking at selling it but wasn't sure of the value of it? Can anyone help? Many thanks, Jimi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyg Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Last one I saw for sale in the US (Oct 2012) went for just shy of $1000.00. In the UK one sold early last year for £660.00 ($1000.00 approx) and one around last November for £475.00 ($750.00 approx) all from eBay. It's probably worth more than a new standard Casino but less than a used Elitist model. Having said that, times are tough everywhere and things are not fetching what they used to IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I'm looking at selling it but wasn't sure of the value of it? JimiMann, the '12 Vintage Guitar Price Guide skips right over those years for Casinos, and the 2012 Blue Book of Electric Guitars values that era Casino at min/max $165/$500, but I think that it's worth quite a bit more. Unfortunately, the early eighties were the death throes of the Norlin ownership years when manufacturing and quality control was suspect on a lot of Gibson output, so people tend to unnecessarily discount guitars made in that era. If the guitar is in good shape, has the original case and no major repairs, I'd guess it will fetch between $800 and $1,000, perhaps a bit more on eBay. I would not trust appraisals that you'll get at Guitar Center or a local mom n' pop store because they will be looking at the Blue Book and recent eBay sales (there are none). It's so rare that there won't be any good comps, so they'll try to low ball you and flip it. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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