Historic vs. Modern Classic vs. Standard

[brakeman]

I searched for the answer in the forums but couldn't find any. What are the differences between these three models? I might be acquiring a 2005 J-45 Historic and wanted to know more about it. I know that the Modern Classic is essentially the Standard but does the Historic differ in any way or is it all just semantics?

[Dotneck]

I think for certain years..."Historic Collection" is also the standard model. Gibson likes to play it loose with names and specs.....

[larryp58]

I searched for the answer in the forums but couldn't find any. What are the differences between these three models? I might be acquiring a 2005 J-45 Historic and wanted to know more about it. I know that the Modern Classic is essentially the Standard but does the Historic differ in any way or is it all just semantics?

 

 

The "historic" tag could refer to the Legend or the True Vintage and VOS series of guitars. Modern Classic is just that, the new Standard. That's much it in a nutshell till Gibson comes up with something new (which could be at any moment!)

[Hall]

rar, will fill you in with all the info soon, I bet.

 

 

Steve

[Rambler]

Yeh, same thing. Almost. The 'Historic' had button tuners, the 'MC', Grovers (dont know about 'Std'). Otherwise, its a J45 w/a pup. Btw, Brakeman, I dig your avatar.

[rar]

What are the differences between these three models?

 

You pretty much have the story already, but I don't want to disappoint Steve, so ...

 

What prompted the introduction of the TV/MC split was the conservatism of a certain segment of the J-45 market. A 2005 Historical Collection J-45 was the standard J-45 of its day. ("Historical Collection" just means that the model was based on a classic Gibson design. The '05 J-45 was based on a '50s model. It wasn't intended to be an accurate reproduction. But, at first glance, it looks much as it would if it were. OTOH, there's no such thing as a '50s or '60s Songwriter, so the '05 Songwriter was not a Historic Collection model.)

 

Gibson wanted to drop some "historical" touches from the baseline J-45 shortly after the time of that '05 that you're considering, but knew this would alienate some of us old fogies -- and some young fogies, too -- who want a guitar that looks just like the one X played back in the day. The idea was to go ahead with minor update of the baseline J-45 with the typical modern player in mind -- someone who just wants to play the darn thing without dwelling on whether the dot on the 'i' in "Gibson" touches the 'G' or not -- but to simultaneously introduce a new model that would keep the traditionalists happy. (Or at least as happy as we were with the Historic Collection models. We can't be made completely happy. That's just how we are.)

 

So they replaced the white button Kluson-copies with functionally superior (in the opinion of the people who's opinions count) Rotomatics, added a pickup, etc. The result was the J-45 MC (now the J-45 Std). The TV models look even a little more traditional than the corresponding Historic Collection models -- bone nuts and uncompensated saddles, for example -- and are also upgraded a tad. (I expect that being an old fogey who wants white buttons on his J-45 tuners correlates pretty well with being willing to spend a few bucks more for upgrades.) J-45 TVs are more lightly built, differently braced, and typically are built from higher-grade materials.

 

The best of the old Historical Collection J-45 are probably about as good as the best of the J-45 TVs, but, on average, TVs are better. IMHO.

 

-- Bob R

[brakeman]

Yeh, same thing. Almost. The 'Historic' had button tuners, the 'MC', Grovers (dont know about 'Std'). Otherwise, its a J45 w/a pup. Btw, Brakeman, I dig your avatar.

Thanks, there, jkinnama. I was gonna go with a picture of a sooty old brakeman working the rails but I found this nice photo of Jimmie Rodgers and thought it apropos.

[brakeman]

You pretty much have the story already, but I don't want to disappoint Steve, so ...

 

What prompted the introduction of the TV/MC split was the conservatism of a certain segment of the J-45 market. A 2005 Historical Collection J-45 was the standard J-45 of its day. ("Historical Collection" just means that the model was based on a classic Gibson design. The '05 J-45 was based on a '50s model. It wasn't intended to be an accurate reproduction. But, at first glance, it looks much as it would if it were. OTOH, there's no such thing as a '50s or '60s Songwriter, so the '05 Songwriter was not a Historic Collection model.)

 

Gibson wanted to drop some "historical" touches from the baseline J-45 shortly after the time of that '05 that you're considering, but knew this would alienate some of us old fogies -- and some young fogies, too -- who want a guitar that looks just like the one X played back in the day. The idea was to go ahead with minor update of the baseline J-45 with the typical modern player in mind -- someone who just wants to play the darn thing without dwelling on whether the dot on the 'i' in "Gibson" touches the 'G' or not -- but to simultaneously introduce a new model that would keep the traditionalists happy. (Or at least as happy as we were with the Historic Collection models. We can't be made completely happy. That's just how we are.)

 

So they replaced the white button Kluson-copies with functionally superior (in the opinion of the people who's opinions count) Rotomatics, added a pickup, etc. The result was the J-45 MC (now the J-45 Std). The TV models look even a little more traditional than the corresponding Historic Collection models -- bone nuts and uncompensated saddles, for example -- and are also upgraded a tad. (I expect that being an old fogey who wants white buttons on his J-45 tuners correlates pretty well with being willing to spend a few bucks more for upgrades.) J-45 TVs are more lightly built, differently braced, and typically are built from higher-grade materials.

 

The best of the old Historical Collection J-45 are probably about as good as the best of the J-45 TVs, but, on average, TVs are better. IMHO.

 

-- Bob R

Thank you, rar (Bob), for that very thorough explanation. I got the impression that the TVs were slightly better but I wouldn't be able to make an even trade for one with the classical I'm selling/trading. So long as it sounds and plays well, I'll be happy. I won't be able to meet with the guy until next Wednesday so I'm starting to chomp at the bit. I haven't had a steel-string acoustic for a few years now and it's definitely calling me back! Cheers.

[Lefty Guy]

I have a 2005 orange label "Historic" J-45 (lefty) ,which I bought new here in the UK. It came with the white button tuners (which I think look way cooler than the new "Standard's" chrome ones), tusq nut & tusq compensated saddle (I replaced the saddle with a Colosi bone one) & a rather unreliable stock pick-up (I replaced this with a more reliable B-band one).

Wonderful guitar! Its light & responsive with killer Gibson tone & sunburst looks. I've played a couple of newer models since (a TV & MC), but wouldn't part with my Historic for either of these.

My only question is, as I asked in another (as yet unanswered) thread, whether Gibson have slightly widened the nut from 1.6875ins to 1.725ins in the meantime?

[Hall]

Thanks, Bob. And, thanks to everyone who contributed on this one. I wanted to get a few things in my my knowledge base also, and I sure hope the info helped everyone.

 

 

Steve

[Dotneck]

To muddy the waters....I was in Guitar Center the other day and they had two Hummingbirds. I think they were labeled 1) Hummingbird Std and 2) Hummingbird VOS.

 

I think VOS means "Vintage Old Style".

 

That's what's kind of fun about Gibson...they can change their models specs or names at any minute.

[Hall]

More mud. VOS, originally among Gibson electrics meant, "Vintage Original Specifications" and the instrument was then finished sprayed with an amber aging color tone on both wood and hardware. It was soon recognized only as that darn aging amber top coat by consumers and the original specs part ignored by most. Gibson made it available either way later, and kept mum, to confuse all. On acoustics I am not sure if we are back to Vintage Original Specifications as a whole instrument and/or amber aging top coat. But, I am sure the amber top coat is present. Back to Bob!

 

 

Steve

[brakeman]

I have a 2005 orange label "Historic" J-45 (lefty) ,which I bought new here in the UK. It came with the white button tuners (which I think look way cooler than the new "Standard's" chrome ones), tusq nut & tusq compensated saddle (I replaced the saddle with a Colosi bone one) & a rather unreliable stock pick-up (I replaced this with a more reliable B-band one).

Wonderful guitar! Its light & responsive with killer Gibson tone & sunburst looks. I've played a couple of newer models since (a TV & MC), but wouldn't part with my Historic for either of these.

My only question is, as I asked in another (as yet unanswered) thread, whether Gibson have slightly widened the nut from 1.6875ins to 1.725ins in the meantime?

Hi Lefty, yeah I saw your thread when I searched. To answer your question, the specs for the J-45 Standard does list the nut width as 1.725" so yes, the new ones are slightly wider. I'm not sure if that also applies to the Modern Classic though I would assume it does.

http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Round-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/J-45-Standard/Specs.aspx

 

Nice to hear that you enjoy your Historic so much. I'm also thinking about replacing the nut, saddle and pins with Colosis. I wonder how the pickup in my prospective guitar will be? This is the first I've heard of someone having a problem with the stock one (Fishman Matrix?). I'm a professional bassist mainly but do a lot of recording on guitar and the odd guitar gig every once in a while so it'll definitely come in handy.