jannusguy Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 anybody care to weigh in on the pitfalls of trading in a guitar at GC? i have 2 non gibsons that i'm looking to jettison and replace with either an AJ or an SJ. there is an AJ at one of our local GCs i was thinking of going and having a look at. the last time i went there with a couple of alvarez acoustics and they basically offered me nothing for them against whatever it was i was looking at then. is it better to try to negotiate the best price you can on the guitar before saying anything about a trade? sort of like dealing for a new auto? get the price and then spring the trade on them? i'm curious to read any experiences the good folks on this forum may have had with GC in particular. BTW, i'm looking to trade the larrivee and epi listed in my signature.i know i'll never get what i actually have in them dollar wise but maybe i should have an expectation of a realistic percentage in this scenario? also, anyone have an idea of what kind of wiggle room GCs typically have on gibsons? thx, rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hey Rob-- I can't speak much to trade-in at Guitar Center although my instinct is that you should first try to find someone there whose guitar knowledge you trust. As often is noted, many of their staff know much less than they think they do, and they have no problem mistaking cheap for good and good for cheap and so on. A smart staff person will at least be honest (one would hope) and tell you where you can get better money for your trade. That said, I have to add (as a happy Larri owner) that you will almost never get anything remotely valuable in trade for a Larrivee. They are so far underpriced new (compared to their amazing value) that their used prices are usually a killer on any trade. For instance, on the Larrivee forum, someone noted that he uses this formula to calculate the value of a typical nothing special used guitar: look at the current MSRP value of the instrument new and multiply by .8; then, cut that number in half. He thinks that is a fair price to pay for a trade. Okay, here is the system working on my Larrivee. I have a basic OM-03 (great guitar by the way). It retails today for $1318 according to Larrivee (that's the MSRP, not the street price for which I actually bought it). Under the formula above, 1318 x .8 = 1054.4. Cut in half equals 527.20. That is what I think might be a fair selling price for my Larrivee, which is in near mint condition. Any dings or major problems, start subtracting. Now, remember that Guitar Center needs to make a profit on its resale, and I bet I would be lucky to get $200 from them for my Larrivee. And mine is only six months old, and as you probably feel, it was worth more than I paid for it to begin with, so that $200 really would be a slap in the face. You're probably better off trying to sell it yourself. I can't comment on the Epiphone in particular, but I suspect it will have a similar problem. Low starting price leads to low resale price, leads to very low trade-in value. I think the formula above works pretty well to calculate value. I've tried it on some used guitars I've seen, and it often generates a number pretty close to what I thought I could pay for a guitar. Unfortunately, trade-in value is always going to be much lower than that. One place on the web that is competitive in this arena is Elderly Instruments (I know, I know, there is some bad blood between Gibson and Elderly, but we're talking trades here). Elderly's website has a trade-in/sell outright/consignment submission form, and you can input an assessment of your instrument, and within a day or two, they will email a set of numbers to you: what the guitar is worth to them in trade or to sell to them outright, or what they would allow you to sell it for on consignment over the web. The consignment value is always highest, but then you're stuck until they move the instrument. Unlike a lot of other places, Elderly offers more in trade than if they just buy the guitar from you, and I ended up getting a number surprisingly close to the 50% you see at the end of the formula above. You may want to check them out. They don't carry new Gibsons (that's the bad blood), but they have a very nice selection of used ones with a good picture gallery and an approval period to try the instrument out. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesLawrence Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Rob, Never traded a guitar at GC, but I would suspect there is a lot of leeway on Gibson pricing. For instance, my Sheryl Crow Signature was purchased at another large music store at a 15% discount from the Internet pricing. And I didn't even try negotiating a better price. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I've traded in a few guitars at Elderly and never again. Now let me explain. I don't think they screwed me BUT... all three times, they've made me offers based on pics and/or in-hand descriptions. All three times they changed their offer once it was shipped to them. Some may say that they discovered problems that weren't disclosed over the phone. I can see why someone might think that. However I don't see much point in lying about the condition of something knowing I wouldn't get a check or trade-in allowance until after they got it! The last time was an '89 LP Standard I sent them in 1997 or so. They offered me $1000 over the phone, then it changed to $800 once they got it. I said, okay, but this is the last time you and I will do business. When I got the check they upped it to $850 because they "felt bad" about it. I would have felt better about it if they had just offered me $800 to begin with. I remember when Elderly was run by a bunch of hippies and I loved buying from them. I found excuses to order stuff, and when their used instrument list came, I would dance all the way back to the house. I miss those days. Didn't mean to derail, just moaning about how things used to be and how greed always prevails in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hey ksdaddy-- Fair point. I was only operating on my own anecdotal information from last summer (June 2007), and you are right to point out that experience varies. That being said, I actually had an experience directly opposite to yours when I dealt with Elderly: I sent in the online form, received an offer based on my description, and then when they saw the guitar, they actually offered me $50 more than the original offer. You can see from that why I would be recommending them. Maybe I just caught them on a money day. . . . Oh, and back to your original questions, Rob: I forgot to add that in terms of guitar price wiggle room at GC, well, there is another reason to find a sales person you trust there. I've had several of the staff tell me that there is no wiggle room on certain guitars, which of course just happen to be the guitars I'm looking at. I suspect that is more due to the workers' lack of knowledge than it is a company policy, though. Some of them might genuinely not know what wiggle room there is, and it is just easier to sit at the price tag than to do the legwork. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiveSoundGuy Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 If memory serves me correct, I think Blue Book had a good article on their site about M.S.R.P. Vs. M.A.P pricing. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxx Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 In Seattle, Craigs List has worked marvelously for those of us who want to get a decent price for our used guitars. Its free and you will always come out further ahead than if you trade in at a retailer! You can check it out at craigslist.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 thanks for all the great input folks. i find myself thinking that the most logical approach will be to continue to try to sell these guitars individually through the usual channels. i have yet to walk away from a trade, in a retail setting, where i felt i got what i might have for a guitar had i been patient enough to sell it. but even in those situations, i was moving up to a better and more coveted guitar. so, i can rationalize it that way. what i need, is a formula for more patience. when i get fired up with GAS, patience seems to be in short supply. thanks again for the replies! rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodruff Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 i traded a 2007 Larrivee L-03 Walnut in on my wife's J-45. they gave me 600 bucks in trade. allowed us to nab the J-45 which unfortunately the larry couldnt compare with tonewise. not really a fair fight anyway.....:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 did they come down on the j45 sticker price as well? or was the 600.00 in trade against what they were asking for the j45 all along? just curious. i guess what i'm getting at is, let's say GC has a stock AJ priced at 1799.00 plus tax, i know i can pick one up used off of ebay for around around 1400.00. that seems to be fairly typical of what the market will bear unless it's custom shop or some such. so, if i could walk into GC and get their price down to what i pretty much know i can get one for via the internet and then get something reasonable for my trade, i'd be a happy camper. is this a pipe dream in most folks experience? thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I have had very good luck trading and selling to GC, sometimes the trade/sale netted me more than I paid for the guitar - particularly with "vintage" guitars for which the local store must call Hollywood. Prices are still somewhat regional, despite the eBay phenomenon! Regarding non-vintage guitars that are readily available elsewhere... might be a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hand Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 better to sell on ebay, or privately. retail stores must make profit and will rip you off. ebay there is a spirit of auction. i think for some there is an addiction factor there. i bought a rick 620 for 1000 back in 2004, sold it a year later on ebay for 700 not bad... i've sold guitars in the more distant past and i won't even say how i got ripped off. it's too embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod B Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I agree with those who are advising you to sell privately via eBay or Craigslist. Any retailer that you trade the guitar to will, of necessity, give you less than private party value if they want to see any profit. That's just part of the cost equation, just like trading in a car. I've never done business on eBay (because of the whole auction mentality and trust issue) but I have used Craigslist and it is free and fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Jack Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Interesting thread! I've been trying to sell a Takamine EF341SC on craigslist for a few weeks now, and I have to say the experience has been frustrating! Three times now different people have written to say they definately want the guitar, sight unseen, but they happen to be out of town at the moment and want to send me a money order! Clearly this is some sort of scam (though for the life of me I can't figure out what anyone has to gain by asking me to accept a money order that would be cleared before the guitar ships). I never heard back from any of them when I said I wanted a cash & carry deal only--though I did offer to hold the guitar for them until they returned to the area. I'm thinking now of going to Ebay, but I'm not sure how to go about shipping the guitar. Can one simply bring an acoustic guitar in a hardshell case to a local Mailboxes, etc., and give it to them for shipping? Will they pack it correctly? I'm not really sure how to do this myself, so I'd prefer to have someone else do it. How much is it likely to cost for shipping? For the OP, I would imagine that GC is more likely to deal if they know that you're buying something else, and they have a sense of what you're buying (and their profit margin). Still, they offer next to nothing. Best, Jersey Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambler Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hey, all. I remember the day back in the (gasp) 80s when, living in so central ILL, I could pretty much get a guitar's fair value in a trade. That will never happen no more, as the song goes. Spoiled me for life. I have a lowball story with GC involving a Fender, but have had a similar experience in an indy psot-hippie store where I live now. Way of the world. I havent dealt with a store since 02 or thereabouts but have bought and sold through the online Ag community with success. Be, uh, discriminating on craigslist -- got some dubious responses* to my adds there. Good luck, Janus. JK * Like this: "three times now different people have written to say they definately want the guitar, sight unseen, but they happen to be out of town at the moment and want to send me a money order! Jersey Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Rob, just a quick addendum: after my lesson today at local cool mom-and-pop guitar shop, I ran over to a GC that I've never visited before and went up to the manager on duty to chat about a couple ES-335s in the shop. He was a very nice guy and clearly knew his stuff and could see that I was serious about buying at some point, but he flat out said that he never offers further discounts on Gibsons than MAP (minimum advertised price, which appears to have become most retailers' price at this point in history). YMMV. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillDuck Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Try Craiglist first, it is local, so you might not have to hassle with shipping & payment long distance The guitar forums are a great place to sell guitars. Then eBay, a bit more trouble but a wide audience. Next, try to sell it to a pawnshop. If none of those work, then trade it into a GC. Seriously, you might get a better deal at a pawnshop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 lot's of good info here, thx! i have listed a couple if guitars on craig's list but no sales there. i sort of feel that even though i view it regularly looking for interesting guitars, anything priced above a few hundred dollars is not gonna get any real leads. at least in our neck of the woods. it's either junk or way over priced. i wander into a couple of pawn shops from time to time looking for the holy grail. have yet to find anything remotely interesting but will consider offering them mine for sale just to see what happens. thanks for the tip! never thought of that before. i have bought and sold a couple of guitars on ebay and, so far, have had positive experiences all the way around. after reading all of these suggestions, it appears that ebay (still) represents the greatest opportunity for the best return. at least of the methods i've tried. for jersey jack's concern about shipping and packing, i have found that going to UPS directly, as opposed to a UPS "store", you will save money for yourself and the buyer. the "stores" add quite a bit for packing and insurance that UPS does not. after reading the comments regarding GC's unwillingness to go below MAP, that pretty much sews it up for me, as far as they're concerned. i know there are better deals to be had. anyway, locally, their selection is pretty thin relative to what i'm looking for. cheers and thanks, rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grOOved Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Just to give put dollar signs next to thoughts - I phoned guitar center about 6 weeks ago wanting to trade in a 2006 Gibson SJ-200 in almost perfect condition for a 2006 Gibson Hummingbird on clearance w/case (new). The Hummingbird was on sale for $1899 and they brought it down to $1660 and they said they still needed about $200 and the SJ-200. So I bought the Hummingbird for $1660 and sold the Gibson SJ-200 on ebay for $2300. I got $900 more selling in ebay then trading in at GC and got the best of both worlds. GC was NOT trying to rip me off which is why they lowered the Bird as far down as possible (manager approval). But the worker there was trying to tell me that they can get a brand new SJ-200 for about the price I wanted a trade in for. Then they need to take a few hundred off for being used, and some more to make a profit. Well, the good thing is I got the sales guy to feel bad for me so he gave me the deal of the century. So if you can try the same approach it might help you get a phenomenal deal as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWilson Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 In our local paper, there are rarely any guitars for sale. Lots of pianos, violins etc. I've sold two guitars and a mandolin in the local want ads, two sold the first day they were in there. I also just sold a guitar by putting photos and a description on the bulletin board where I work. I got all the money, didn't have to pay a 25% consignment like when you sell through a shop. Trading a guitar in for another is just like a car trade-in, as someone else mentioned. They are there to make a profit and you'll never get what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geelinus Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Twice I've taken a guitar into GC for a possible trade-in and been seriously low-balled on value each time. My advice is to do what I did: Sell the guitar on an Internet guitar forum or eBay, and then apply the proceeds to the guitar you want to buy. If you're afraid that the guitar you want will be gone by the time you sell your current guitar, just charge the danged thing and apply the money from the sale to your charge card account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendrick68 Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 This is kind of long, but read it. You might learn something. "For instance, on the Larrivee forum, someone noted that he uses this formula to calculate the value of a typical nothing special used guitar: look at the current MSRP value of the instrument new and multiply by .8; then, cut that number in half. He thinks that is a fair price to pay for a trade." Nice "formula". An overly complicated way of saying 40%... That is the correct percentage however it is based on the wrong value. The retail value is used to estimate a trade-in, not the MSRP. Example: J-45 Modern Classic Acoustic-Electric MSRP: $3,404 Retail: $2399 If you trade in this guitar you would get approx. $960 based on retail value. If you tried to trade based on MSRP the trade value is approx. $1360. That $400 difference is where GC or whoever is able to make their profit. GC give up their profit on a trade-in so that you can have your dream guitar? NOT GONNA HAPPEN! Now consider that these numbers are based on a guitar in as-new condition. Any alterations, buckle rash, dents, paint chips, etc. etc. and these numbers will get smaller. The bottom line is that they will make a profit off of any transaction. They are a bussiness. You don't stay in bussiness very long by giving out unbelieveable deals while making $0 profit, much less become one of the largest if not the largest music chain stores in the country. If the dude at the store tells you anything different, he's lying to you. But then that's not really a stretch is it? Hmmm, a lying salesman, at a music store, what's the chances??? I'd say we're back to the magic number again. 40, as in 40%. Just like the trade-in values mentioned above are 40% there is also about a 40% chance that whatever the GC dude is telling you is BS. BS he has to tell you to make the sale. Ah once again we're revisiting the concepts mentioned earlier, the one where GC will make a profit off of any transaction... Ultimately you have to decide whether the trade-in value is enough or not, regardless of the formula. I recently tried to trade-in a 2002 American Telecaster in excellent condition with hardshell case also in excellent condition, and was offered $400. I declined the offer. While $400 is a reasonable offer for that particular guitar, it just wasn't enough for me to let it go. It is just to good to sell for that price. I ended up keeping the Tele and buying the Strat I wanted anyway. So when you go into GC to trade a guitar or whatever else, have a solid dollar value that you will not go below, and stick to that value. In my case they offered $400, I wanted $500. The strat I wanted was good enough that I just paid for it outright. I am happy that I didn't trade the Tele. Only a $100 difference, but I stuck to my predetermined trade-in value and ended up with both guitars anyway. In the end I could have traded the Tele and effectively bought the Strat for $400 less than retail. I made the right choice. Now I have a great Tele and a great Strat! The key to shrewd negotiation is being able to walk away without any regard for the failed negotiation. If the deal 'aint right, then walk. You see, salesmen rely on customers that come in with that certain gleam in their eye... you know the one. The customer that just has to have that guitar and begins figuring out how they can get it... well sure they will get it if they really want it bad enough, but that's what the salesman will prey on... Like I said earlier you have to have pre-set limits that you will not go past. That gives you the ability to walk away from any deal that you don't like. No deciding how you can negotiate a better deal, no quibbiling over $100 bucks or whatever, just deal or no deal. Make a reasonable offer and remember that the salesman wants the commission as much as you want the guitar. Always be in a strong position. Be willing to walk away and make them know it. If they call your "bluff" then walk. That's OK some other salesman will get your money. If I sound callous in my opinion or approach, chalk it up to my years of experience as a consumer, and my experience as a salesman. After a while you see all the different angles and all the different BS. You learn to cut through it. What you will ultimately end up with is what I have told you here. I'm just giving you the simple "black & white" version. Sure there are many more variables that may be involved, but when you cut out all the BS this is how bussiness is done. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 This is kind of long' date=' but read it. You might learn something. "For instance, on the Larrivee forum, someone noted that he uses this formula to calculate the value of a typical nothing special used guitar: look at the current MSRP value of the instrument new and multiply by .8; then, cut that number in half. He thinks that is a fair price to pay for a trade." Nice "formula". An overly complicated way of saying 40%... That is the correct percentage however it is based on the wrong value. The retail value is used to estimate a trade-in, not the MSRP.[/quote'] Hey Kendrick68-- I think you misunderstood part of the formula issue that you are quoting. I was the person who wrote that post you quoted. First off, it was meant as a way to calculate not the trade-in value, but the street value of a guitar someone wants to sell. You are correct that it boils down to 40%, and I was mistaken in not explaining the full formula. The point of the long-winded way to 40% is this: based on the MSRP, walking out the door of the shop with a brand-new guitar already knocks at least 20% off that base right away. So, whatever formula GC or Sweetwater, etc. were to use to calculate value, it is now based on a new, lower "MSRP," so to speak. That is the initial .8 of the calculation. Once the guitar takes this hit (similar to the cost of driving the car off the dealer's lot), you the private seller can get at most half of that new base because a) everyone discounts off of MSRP at least 30-40% in the guitar industry; and :D the whole point of your private sale is to sell for less than the store. Gibson and Martin's MAPs tend to be about 40% lower than MSRP so now you need to knock at least another 10% to make it worth it to buy from you. That is the second 50% of the formula. In the end, it comes up 40%, yeah, but the process is still useful to go through because as the guitar gets older, your initial cut from the MSRP probably needs to increase, or if the guitar is a no-name, your second calculation has to cut value even further. Or there may be situations where some piece of bling on the guitar or that it is brand new allow you to make a much smaller initial cut in the MSRP. I probably should have explained all that at the time. My apologies. If it doesn't work for you, no problem. It seems like a great adjustable formula to me. I also doubt 40% is the number most salespeople in the guitar shop use to calculate trade-in. The number is a much more elusive number based on first calculating what the guitar can be sold for, coupled with local interest, and the chances of moving it quickly. For instance, when I tried to trade in an OMI Dobro a couple years back, one store offered me 25% of the used value, and another store offered me 80%. Why the difference? This I know because each store explained their offer to me: store #1 had six Dobros waiting to move and couldn't even get mine on the floor but knew it was worth having for the person who might come in six months from now looking for what was a relatively scarce model, while store #2 knew they could move the Dobro the next day. The funny thing, though, is this: both of the stores had calculated almost identical selling point values for the Dobro (without reference to a Blue Book by the way), and they were basically equal to the formula calculation above. So they were calculating trade-in value based on the future sale value of the instrument, minus their expenses and hoped-for profit. The store can give you more if they know the used instrument won't stay on the shop floor for long. That is where the "low-balling" comes from, not from some formula to calculate trade-in, but from the calculation of resale value, minus the costs of the time the guitar is sitting in the shop, and minus the profit margin the shop needs to make to stay in business. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendrick68 Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 "I think you misunderstood part of the formula issue that you are quoting." - No, I didn't misunderstand anything. I just simplified it. "I probably should have explained all that at the time. My apologies." - Nah, no harm no foul. No apologies needed I don't have any problem with it. I just wanted to cut it down to the most basic form for easier comprehension. "The funny thing, though, is this: both of the stores had calculated almost identical selling point values for the Dobro (without reference to a Blue Book by the way), and they were basically equal to the formula calculation above." - Really? That is exactly what I already said in so many words... "The store can give you more if they know the used instrument won't stay on the shop floor for long. That is where the "low-balling" comes from, not from some formula to calculate trade-in, but from the calculation of resale value, minus the costs of the time the guitar is sitting in the shop, and minus the profit margin the shop needs to make to stay in business." - Trade-in value: typically approx. 40% retail value. Resale value: typically 50 to 70% retail. These are "concrete" values, i.e. calculable figures used for pricing used merchandise. Time sitting in the shop is a guess at best and cannot be used in the calculation. Another sales trick... Profit margin is calculated based on the whloesale price the seller pays to buy the product in bulk, therefore this variable is not reliable in calculating the value of used merchandise. Most shops do not have the time or manpower to calculate the profit margin of each and every item in their inventory. This is done in bulk. This is also why larger store like GC can usually offer lower prices. They buy wholesale and distribute the products to the individual stores. They charge you the retail price and the rest is their profit, minus expenses of course. They simply cannot give you trade-in value based on "guesswork". There are too many "what-ifs" in the used instrument bussiness. That is why the 40% of retail value is tyically used. This method will always allow the retail outlet to make a reasonable profit. Just remember that it is all about them. They really don't care if you get the "guitar of your dreams" or not. Someone else will come into the store and it will be the "guitar of their dreams" and they may buy it without trying to negotiate the price. The sales staff always has that in their back pocket, likewise if you do your homework before you go shopping you will know what the limits are. As I said before you have to be able to walk away if you don't get the deal you want. The only catch is that you have to know where that point really is. If you're following what I'm saying then you can figure out with certainty where that point is. Anyway just make sure you shop armed with some knowledge. Don't let impulse be the driving factor when you shop. If you do then the salesman will always get the better end of the deal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodruff Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 did they come down on the j45 sticker price as well? or was the 600.00 in trade against what they were asking for the j45 all along? just curious. i guess what i'm getting at is' date=' let's say GC has a stock AJ priced at 1799.00 plus tax, i know i can pick one up used off of ebay for around around 1400.00. that seems to be fairly typical of what the market will bear unless it's custom shop or some such. so, if i could walk into GC and get their price down to what i pretty much know i can get one for via the internet and then get something reasonable for my trade, i'd be a happy camper. is this a pipe dream in most folks experience? thx[/quote'] yes, but not much. theycame down to 1850 as the base, and took 600 off that, so we got a brand new j-45 for 1250. awesome. but 1799, is even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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