Post War - 1947 Gibson J45

[Jemmie]

As a new member here, I put this in the introduction category, but thought it might get more reads here.

 

Hello all. I was happy to come across this forum. My name is Jemmie (pronounced Jimmy) I actually happened here while researching how to proceed, what to do to a precious guitar. It was given to me years ago by my father and I will never part with it. I am willing it to my oldest child. I had continued to play it until the tuners would not hold it in tune any longer. At that time, I could not bear the thought of replacing tuners or doing anything to it, so I retired it to it's case under my bed and have not touched it in about 7 years. I play a Taylor. But getting older, (both it an me) I decided to pull it back out. I really love this box.

 

If you look at the pictures, you will see that it was very poorly treated. My dad, bless his soul, didn't realize what a wonderful, valuable, guitar it would someday be. Heck, it was not a top of the line guitar and common at the time. He was a country singer and the box suffered a lot of superficial scars. Did I mention, a LOT, of superficial scars? So, my dad decided to cover them and was going to "sand" it and "stain" it. I am in the process now of removing that top layer of stain. I am in the painstaking process of removing that thin layer of stain. The original sunburst finish is underneath. It does appear though that he "sanded" the finish off in a few spots. I really don't want to refinish the guitar...I don't mind it looking its age, but I can't stand leaving it in the shape it is in. So I am considering my alternatives.

 

As bad as it looks, it is structurally sound. The only non-original piece is a brace that I had a Luthier replace inside along the back. There is a line, indicating a possible crack on one side. I will have this repaired as well. Given the fact that I will always have and play this box, I feel compelled to do some "sprucing up." The top, especially around the sound hole, is pretty thin so doing a full refinish might be out of the question even if I wanted to. So, I am looking for opinions, thoughts, and direction. If the face was not so ugly, I would not be considering doing anything to it. I don't want new, I just want to preserve it and would like it to have a little cover on those bare spots. Haven't decided exactly how I will proceed.

 

PICS

[j45nick]

Looks to me like you are doing a decent job of removing the over-stain. I assume you are using a mild solvent like naphtha, and a lot of cotton swabs. The remaining finish actually looks decent, although the large number of bare spots are a concern.

 

How is the neck angle?

 

How worn are the frets and fretboard? I only mention this because of the heavy wear on the top.

 

How does the back of the guitar look? The cosmetic condition of the back may impact on any decision you make.

 

If the guitar is in good playing condition, the question will be what, if any, cosmetic stabilization should be done. The amount of exposed raw exterior wood is a bit of a concern. A really talented luthier might do a light masking overspray to protect the exposed wood, but I don't think I would try to "restore" the top cosmetically. The original 'burst looks in pretty good condition, and you would not want to lose that.

 

You should be able to return the tuners to good working condition, and if they are original, that might be worth doing. If the tuners are really too far gone to restore--which you rarely see-- there are excellent repro tuners out there, for both open-back and closed-back tuners of this period. Replacing tuners is a reversible operation, so you not harm the guitar by doing that. There are also plenty of good period-correct used tuners out there, although those would be a bit more expensive.

 

Is there a FON (factory order number) stamped on the neck block inside the soundhole? That could help date the guitar properly. These numbers between 1947 and 1951 are sometimes hard to pin down precisely, but there is generally a lot of consistency in the quality of the J-45's from this period. I own one myself, although it has been much modified over the years..

 

Particularly because of the sentimental value, the guitar is almost certainly worth returning to playing condition, and you might be surprised to hear the tone that comes out of it in gratitude for your efforts.

[Jemmie]

Looks to me like you are doing a decent job of removing the over-stain. I assume you are using a mild solvent like naphtha, and a lot of cotton swabs. The remaining finish actually looks decent, although the large number of bare spots are a concern.

 

How is the neck angle?

 

How worn are the frets and fretboard? I only mention this because of the heavy wear on the top.

 

How does the back of the guitar look? The cosmetic condition of the back may impact on any decision you make.

 

If the guitar is in good playing condition, the question will be what, if any, cosmetic stabilization should be done. The amount of exposed raw exterior wood is a bit of a concern. A really talented luthier might do a light masking overspray to protect the exposed wood, but I don't think I would try to "restore" the top cosmetically. The original 'burst looks in pretty good condition, and you would not want to lose that.

 

You should be able to return the tuners to good working condition, and if they are original, that might be worth doing. If the tuners are really too far gone to restore--which you rarely see-- there are excellent repro tuners out there, for both open-back and closed-back tuners of this period. Replacing tuners is a reversible operation, so you not harm the guitar by doing that. There are also plenty of good period-correct used tuners out there, although those would be a bit more expensive.

 

Is there a FON (factory order number) stamped on the neck block inside the soundhole? That could help date the guitar properly. These numbers between 1947 and 1951 are sometimes hard to pin down precisely, but there is generally a lot of consistency in the quality of the J-45's from this period. I own one myself, although it has been much modified over the years..

 

Particularly because of the sentimental value, the guitar is almost certainly worth returning to playing condition, and you might be surprised to hear the tone that comes out of it in gratitude for your efforts.

 

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

 

The neck angle and playability are still there. The only issue was the tuners. I have been looking at some repro tuners (Kluson) because I had no idea that the original tuners could be "restored." Never heard of that. Cool!

 

There is a number on the head stock. I'm at work and don't have it with me. I will try and write it down tonight and post tomorrow. I did research it years ago which is how I arrived at the 1947 date. It does not have the war time banner on the head and the Gibson logo is silk screened, has the long G and N hooks. The logo, unfortunately, was also stained over. I have done a little work to remove that stain and the logo did come out a bit but is still very faint. Not much I can do about that I don't think.

 

As you pointed out, the bare spots are my major concerns too. The finish on the back and sides look surprisingly good except for one small crack forming on the bottom side.

 

I've considered this project from several angles. I thought about just putting some hardener on the bare areas, but hate to leaving the box looking so roached out. I also considered taping off and spraying a bit more encore brown around the edges and above the sound hole to cover most of the bare areas. This would leave most of the original amber in place. Once happy with it, seal the whole thing with a couple coats of lacquer. But it will entail a lot of time, so much careful work, it almost feels like working hard and not even being certain how it will look in the end. But I've not decided on doing anything yet. Just thinking it through.

 

This was all I played for years. I love my Taylor but, as you said, there is a lot of sentimental value here. Dad is gone and this Gibson is all I have left of him.

 

This box always had a strong, deep voice. I can't wait to play it again. Thanks for your thoughts. Nice to meet you.

[Jemmie]

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

 

The neck angle and playability are still there. The only issue was the tuners. I have been looking at some repro tuners (Kluson) because I had no idea that the original tuners could be "restored." Never heard of that. Cool!

 

There is a number on the head stock. I'm at work and don't have it with me. I will try and write it down tonight and post tomorrow. I did research it years ago which is how I arrived at the 1947 date. It does not have the war time banner on the head and the Gibson logo is silk screened, has the long G and N hooks. The logo, unfortunately, was also stained over. I have done a little work to remove that stain and the logo did come out a bit but is still very faint. Not much I can do about that I don't think.

 

As you pointed out, the bare spots are my major concerns too. The finish on the back and sides look surprisingly good except for one small crack forming on the bottom side.

 

I've considered this project from several angles. I thought about just putting some hardener on the bare areas, but hate to leaving the box looking so roached out. I also considered taping off and spraying a bit more encore brown around the edges and above the sound hole to cover most of the bare areas. This would leave most of the original amber in place. Once happy with it, seal the whole thing with a couple coats of lacquer. But it will entail a lot of time, so much careful work, it almost feels like working hard and not even being certain how it will look in the end. But I've not decided on doing anything yet. Just thinking it through.

 

This was all I played for years. I love my Taylor but, as you said, there is a lot of sentimental value here. Dad is gone and this Gibson is all I have left of him.

 

This box always had a strong, deep voice. I can't wait to play it again. Thanks for your thoughts. Nice to meet you.

 

 

OH and PS - The fret board is great. The only notable wear is on the back of the neck in the major G chord position. LOL My dad could play 3 chords G-C- and D. He played and sang everything in G. HAHA but he could light up a barn dance! Watched him do it. He was awesome.

[j45nick]

There is a number on the head stock. I'm at work and don't have it with me. I will try and write it down tonight and post tomorrow.

 

It's unusual to have a number on the headstock in this period, unless the guitar went back to Gibson for repair at some point, when they sometimes re-stamped the FON on the back of the headstock. Definitely look inside the sound hole at the neck block. There may be a number there as well. In this period, it is likely to be four digits that are ink-stamped, then a space, usually followed by one or two digits which could be either ink-stamped or written in pencil.

 

Based on the photos and your description of the logo, it's easy to isolate it to 1947-1954. The numbers should pin it down more closely.

[zombywoof]

A friend of mine calls the kind of stuff your Dad did to the guitar "Folly of Youth" relicing. You would not believe the things I and others I know did to guitars back in the day. My first guitar was an old Martin round soundhole archtop given to me by a friend of the family who had it sitting around in a closet. I did not know the proper way to fix a crack was not to drill two holes at either end of the opening and then slather Duco cement in there followed by brushing on some varnish. These were just old guitars and really nothing special.

 

Anyway, what a great guitar and what a great story. Just curious, does the guitar have open gear "waffle" rivet tuners. Only reason I ask is these tuners show up on 1947 Gibsons. Never saw them used before or after that year although I have been told they do occasionally show up on a late Banner here and there.

I also would not worry about putting new tuners on. Antique Acoustics and Stew Mac among others offer nice repros. Originals are generally also fairly easy to find on eBay.

[BluesKing777]

Which one of these do you think sounds best?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So get it sounding and playing the best you can, then consider the looks. Normally I would say leave the mojo, but because it is your father's guitar, I would consider a professional refinish.

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[duluthdan]

I would agree with BlueKing but... I believe that if you are going to refinish this top (and I would be in the camp to do so) some of the steps might involve removal and reset of the neck, and removal and re-attachment of the pick guard. So, I would not spend a lot of $$$ to get it set-up and playing well, as the refinishing process may undo some of these things. The collectors value of this guitar is already gone. I would get it refinished by a pro - or even inquire at the Gibson Bozeman plant, or Music Villa in Bozeman, I know their guy (Marcus) has been known to accomplish absolute miracles. You have a great opportunity to have a helluva players guitar there. Don't do it half way.

 

http://acousticletter.com/shop/1941-vintage-gibson-j35/

[Jemmie]

You are correct about the location of the serial number. Was my misuse of terminology. It is stamped and inked on the neck block inside. My bad. I will try and get a picture of the number to post.

 

I have to say that the more responses I read to my post, and to other posts on this board, the more impressed I am with the expertise here. I am realizing just how many nuances there are to properly identifying a guitar. There are a lot of subtle differences in finish and build that I had no idea about. Takes an educated eye. This is leading me to lean towards an expert restore for sure.

 

Thankful I found this board.

[Jemmie]

Music Villa in Bozeman - Marcus

 

Got it! My gut tells me you folks are leading me right. I may finish taking the top coat of stain off the top (just out of curiosity) and I will likely put repro tuners on and play it a bit.

 

I will leave further restore (whatever that entails) to a pro.

 

Ps - I am using fine and very fine (00 and 0000) steel wool finishing pads to slowly remove the stain. No chemicals. It's a slowwwwww job.

 

Thanks much.

[Jemmie]

The tuners are closed gear, not open. No banner on this one, just Gibson. I'll post a pic of that. It's really faint due to stain coverage and probably some fading. I think it's silk screened.

[BluesKing777]

A 'restoration' and a 'refinish of the guitar top' could have wildly different prices!

 

 

Consider your car - take it to the local mechanic and say you want it restored!!!! Or you want just the bonnet painted?

 

 

And you can't go to just any painter - someone here might give you a lead to a competent luthier skilled in refinishing Gibson sunbursts - they could be thin on the ground, so a fair bit of research could pay off.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Jemmie]

I wanted to provide additional pics of this guitar so, perhaps, the date could be better nailed down. I will say that the only images that I have found on the web of a J45 that match this box are of a 1948 model, but I definitely appreciate any input!

 

The serial number is in this format X XXX XX The characters look like "Z 335 14" BUT the first character is very vague. Among the pics at the link below I have a few pics of the stamped serial number as well as shots of the guitar from many angles.

 

 

Lots of additional pics

[j45nick]

I wanted to provide additional pics of this guitar so, perhaps, the date could be better nailed down. I will say that the only images that I have found on the web of a J45 that match this box are of a 1948 model, but I definitely appreciate any input!

 

The serial number is in this format X XXX XX The characters look like "Z 335 14" BUT the first character is very vague. Among the pics at the link below I have a few pics of the stamped serial number as well as shots of the guitar from many angles.

 

 

Lots of additional pics

 

A bit hard to tell if it is X, Y, or Z prefix. Z prefix is 1952, Y is 1953, X is 1954. That characteristics and the prefix definitely pin it to 1952-1954. Very few physical changes from late 1947 through 1954. They are all from a primo era for the J-45, and the potential value is pretty much the same for all these years.

 

You need to think pretty hard before deciding how much work to do to this. Make whatever structural repairs are necessary, but have them done properly. After you have gone as far as you care to go with removing the over-stain, think long and hard before considering major cosmetic work.

 

The beat-up guitar reflects your father's love for playing. We all show the wear and tear of our years, sooner or later. That wear and tear is a badge of honor, and should not necessarily be "fixed".

[Jemmie]

A bit hard to tell if it is X, Y, or Z prefix. Z prefix is 1952, Y is 1953, X is 1954. That characteristics and the prefix definitely pin it to 1952-1954. Very few physical changes from late 1947 through 1954. They are all from a primo era for the J-45, and the potential value is pretty much the same for all these years.

 

You need to think pretty hard before deciding how much work to do to this. Make whatever structural repairs are necessary, but have them done properly. After you have gone as far as you care to go with removing the over-stain, think long and hard before considering major cosmetic work.

 

The beat-up guitar reflects your father's love for playing. We all show the wear and tear of our years, sooner or later. That wear and tear is a badge of honor, and should not necessarily be "fixed".

 

Agreed. I prefer not to fix all of the wear on the guitar. I like some of the roach, however, some this was not a result of playing. much of the bare wood is a result of misguided efforts to "refinish" it. Ultimately, stain was just dabbed over the original finish and the bare spots created during "sanding." The large bare spots at the bottom left and some at the top left of the sound hole are results of this. I hate seeing it like that.

 

I'm definitely not moving to do anything radical, but I am weighing my options. Do I care about the collectability of it. I would be lying to say otherwise, but I know that I will not part with it while I am alive. So I am choosing functionality over collectability. Some would say that, based on the horrible look of it, it is not very valuable from a collector standpoint anyway.

 

Trust me, I am churning over this and not making any flippant decision. I love LOVE this box. It took me years to decide to order some tuners for it. As far as the structural issues, yes, absolutely, these will be fixed by someone with experience! But since I don't want to fully restore it, I am debating on how to make the marred face look a little less abused and a little more like it was just played. In other words, leaning towards some area repairs but with the knowledge that doing this is no easy chore while matching the existing finish. So I am still thinking on it.

 

Appreciate your reply and your input. Definitely still struggling with how to proceed after I remove the top layer of stain.

[6stringTom]

Jemmie, I'm just throwing in another "welcome to the forum." You came to a good place for advice. I'll just reiterate the hope that you'll find someone with real expertise in vintage Gibsons before you go further. You might try sending a pm to John Thomas, who posts here sometimes and could probably steer you in the right direction.

[BluesKing777]

Jemmie, I'm just throwing in another "welcome to the forum." You came to a good place for advice. I'll just reiterate the hope that you'll find someone with real expertise in vintage Gibsons before you go further. You might try sending a pm to John Thomas, who posts here sometimes and could probably steer you in the right direction.

 

 

 

Good idea, except JT doesn't talk to us anymore! :mellow:

 

 

UMGF - try here:

http://john-thomas.theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[retrorod]

Good idea, except JT doesn't talk to us anymore! :mellow:

 

 

UMGF - try here:

http://john-thomas.t...forum.yuku.com/

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

Are you implying that he simply "courted us" for the "love of Kalamazoo" ????

 

http://weather.aol.com/forecast/US/kalamazoo/id/49001

 

 

[stein]

Thought I would throw in my 2 cents, as well as a warm welcome, for both the guitar and you.

 

I think you should have it looked at for sure, at the very least, regardless of what you decide. The side pic has me a little worried, as that might be a good crack that needs to be addressed before it gets worse.

 

I think it's a good idea to have this guitar professionally worked on as opposed to doing it yourself. Reason being, this means a lot to you, and you want the best for it. You can replace money.

 

I get that you may not want to have it restored, but somewhere in between is having work done not to make new again, but to preserve the guitar for as long as possible. MAYBE that involves having the top refinished. Maybe not. But a bare top will wear down a LOT more quickly than one with some sort of finish on it.

 

I am NOT going to guess what it needs and what it will cost, but regardless of what it will be worth in money, and even what it is for sentimental reasons, it might be worth it to you just for the SOUND of this thing. I get the feeling it is a great sounding guitar, having been played all those years.

[stein]

Which one of these do you think sounds best?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So get it sounding and playing the best you can, then consider the looks. Normally I would say leave the mojo, but because it is your father's guitar, I would consider a professional refinish.

 

BluesKing777.

 

Why, the left one, of corse!

 

EVERYONE knows bone and ivory bridge pins sound better than plastic!

[retrorod]

The FON prefix looks like an X or Y to me.....

[Jemmie]

Why, the left one, of corse!

 

EVERYONE knows bone and ivory bridge pins sound better than plastic!

 

But of course. The one on the right sounds kind of plain. The one on the left is bursting with sound.

[guitarjtb]

Jemmie,

The best thing you can do for that guitar is to leave the finish alone, until you decide if you want more work done to it. Leave ALL of the work to a professional. Anything you do will make matters worse for the eventual repair person/restorer.

 

Don't remove any more finish, and by all means don't spray any more color or clear on the top. You can put exact repro tuners on it for $50 or so from Stew Mac. Make sure they fit all of the existing tuner holes, and screw holes, and don't re-drill or enlarge any holes. Save the old tuners.

 

Play it like it is, until you decide what you want done to it, and find the right person to do it. Personally, the top would be fine with me like it is. I call that mojo. But, I have a reputation for liking, ugly, worn out, old Gibsons that sound great.

 

I agree with Rod, it is a 1954 model and the finish looks original on everything but the top. Please don't let anyone touch that.

[Jemmie]

Thought I would throw in my 2 cents, as well as a warm welcome, for both the guitar and you.

 

I think you should have it looked at for sure, at the very least, regardless of what you decide. The side pic has me a little worried, as that might be a good crack that needs to be addressed before it gets worse.

 

I think it's a good idea to have this guitar professionally worked on as opposed to doing it yourself. Reason being, this means a lot to you, and you want the best for it. You can replace money.

 

I get that you may not want to have it restored, but somewhere in between is having work done not to make new again, but to preserve the guitar for as long as possible. MAYBE that involves having the top refinished. Maybe not. But a bare top will wear down a LOT more quickly than one with some sort of finish on it.

 

I am NOT going to guess what it needs and what it will cost, but regardless of what it will be worth in money, and even what it is for sentimental reasons, it might be worth it to you just for the SOUND of this thing. I get the feeling it is a great sounding guitar, having been played all those years.

 

 

I appreciate the guidance with this. I agree. I plan to only complete removal of the over stain and put some new Kluson tuners on. I will begin looking for the right guy to handle the rest and will begin with those suggested here. Thanks much. As the story develops, I will share.

 

Love this site. Thanks again