guitar12 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Hi all, I'm pretty taken right now with the Casino Elitist but when I had my MIC Casino a couple of years ago I bought a small Vox amp (can't remember what model) and had it in my second bedroom which is the only place that I play and I just remember the amp/guitar buzzing anytime I got near the amp. I'm confused as to whether this is the 'Casino Feedback' that many talk about or the 60 cycle single coil hum, etc. ? Do you guys/gals have any problems with yours creating a lot of interference? I'll only be playing at low volume. Thanks. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 single coils are going to do that, there's no way around it. p90s are probably more so than a tele or a strat, just by the fact the magnet and coils are much bigger. the only think you can do is stick a noise gate in front of it, but there is always the "tone suck" factor... Me? a guy with two strats, a tele and an SG w/p90s,, what do I do.. well.. I live with it! :) EDIT: So after reading the post again,, question: when you talk about FEEDBACK is it just the BUZZ or is it a low frequency feedback that gets louder and louder till you mute the strings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 There are a lot of factors involved in such hum. Some of us have played in places where the "plug-ins" had some sorts of lighting also on a main circuit that could bring maddening hum. Any single coil will be more likely to have the difficulty, but even HB pup guitars can appear to have a lotta hum depending on the circuit the amp is plugged into. That can also bring up questions of the quality of one's wiring between the guitar and amp, etc., etc. But as "Kid" noted, a single pole pup tends to be more sensitive. Amps of any sort also can be more or less sensitive. I recall when I was a kid, I'd have fun with my tube radios by playing with some "telegraph" keys that were semi-popular "in the day" in the '50s. With no direct wires whatsoever from the key to the radio, one still could hear the radio giving out the dots and dashes; sometimes as I recall (We're talking nearly 60 years ago), more at some settings on the radio than others. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar12 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 EDIT: So after reading the post again,, question: when you talk about FEEDBACK is it just the BUZZ or is it a low frequency feedback that gets louder and louder till you mute the strings? I recall it being just walking with the guitar in hand (not playing it) towards the amp that I would hear the hum and it getting louder as I got near the amp. So I guess what we are talking about is the 60 cycle hum right? A guy at the music store where the Casino Elitist is told me that I could reduce the 60 cycle hum by putting the pickup selector switch in the middle position. Also, like you have noted, he said it is a product of single coils and said a Tele would do the same thing. So, if that is the 60 cycle issue then what exactly is the Casino feedback issue that people seem to note often on forums as in 'Casinos feed back like crazy because of the hollowbody', 'Have to deal with the feedback issue', etc. ? Thanks again. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Rob... You're talking about, it seems, the 60-cycle hum. But it's also a hum that I think your guitar may be picking up a bit extra either due to "feedback" (the guitar vibrating at the frequency of the hum as it nears the amp) or the wiring and sensitivity of the amp. The feedback issue is true of all "electric" and "Electric-acoustic" guitars to an extent. The sound from the amp will bring vibration of the strings and body of the guitar. Since there is less dampening in a hollowbody (or flattop) due to how it is built, it is more likely to feed back. That is what, in the late 1940s and through the '50s brought new kids of guitars. Yes, solidbodies feed back less. Flattops tend to feed back more - and note that recently flattop AE guitars tend to have a "phase" switch, and there also are controls on AE guitar amps that are designed to lessen that feedback. Hollowbody guitars of all kinds are more likely to feed back than solidbodies that tend to dampen the potential of feedback. That brought the "semi hollow" guitar with a block under the bridge, one way or another, that would help to keep the guitar body/strings from vibrating along with the sound from the amplifier. Your Casino is more likely to feed back than a similar size and equipped "Dot" for that reason, regardless of pickups. For what it's worth, that's also why most thinbody electrics, with or without the solid block in the middle, are made with laminated woods that are less likely to feed back than most solid woods. The ES-175 ditto, and it was both a bit smaller and of a laminate - as a "almost always played electric" instrument compared to the larger solidtop archtops that could and would, in that era, be played as acoustics. That help at all? m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 'Casinos feed back like crazy because of the hollowbody', 'Have to deal with the feedback issue', etc. ? Thanks again. Rob hey Rob.. Ok So that's a different thing The "hum" is just an attribute of the single coil, the reason they made humbuckers was to "buck the hum" so two coils in a single pickup defeated the "hum" More than you ever needed to know will be here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humbucker the other kind of feedback is more micro-phonic, and it's something that guys who own/play hollow body guitars have to deal with. This isn't the same at all as the 60 cyc. hum we've already talked about. This sort of feed back is generated from the resonating of the guitar body, due to the string vibrating, at louder volumes can cause a bit of a chain reaction in side the guitar that will ultimately loop back into the pickups. Since the guitar is hollow, there's really nothing to absorb the "energy" from the strings and body vibrating. This will be a low frequence feedback (unlike the squealing of a microphone to close to the speakers but feed back all the same) the longer you let the strings vibrate the louder that feedback will get. There are also certain notes that when you hold them to sustain are more likely to cause a hollow body to do this sort of feed back.. (B flat is a favorite!!) So guys with Casinos have to deal with BOTH the hum from the P90 and the micro-phonic feed back, in which the louder you play, the more likely you will get this kind of feedback. If you're just playing at bedroom or "in the house" volumes, you wont likely run into the later. the "Hum" or "Buzz"... not much you can do but find a compromise with the positioning of your guitar to the amp. you can move around and hear this buzz get louder or quieter. when it gets quieter,, stay THERE and it wont be as bothersome. Like when we were kids watch UHF channels with rabbit ears and our dads would make us hold the tips of the antenna and move around till the picture was clearer... "OK THERE! Don't MOVE!!!" and that's how we watched Hockey before Cable tv and HD TVs LOL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar12 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Rob... You're talking about, it seems, the 60-cycle hum. But it's also a hum that I think your guitar may be picking up a bit extra either due to "feedback" (the guitar vibrating at the frequency of the hum as it nears the amp) or the wiring and sensitivity of the amp. The feedback issue is true of all "electric" and "Electric-acoustic" guitars to an extent. The sound from the amp will bring vibration of the strings and body of the guitar. Since there is less dampening in a hollowbody (or flattop) due to how it is built, it is more likely to feed back. That is what, in the late 1940s and through the '50s brought new kids of guitars. Yes, solidbodies feed back less. Flattops tend to feed back more - and note that recently flattop AE guitars tend to have a "phase" switch, and there also are controls on AE guitar amps that are designed to lessen that feedback. Hollowbody guitars of all kinds are more likely to feed back than solidbodies that tend to dampen the potential of feedback. That brought the "semi hollow" guitar with a block under the bridge, one way or another, that would help to keep the guitar body/strings from vibrating along with the sound from the amplifier. Your Casino is more likely to feed back than a similar size and equipped "Dot" for that reason, regardless of pickups. For what it's worth, that's also why most thinbody electrics, with or without the solid block in the middle, are made with laminated woods that are less likely to feed back than most solid woods. The ES-175 ditto, and it was both a bit smaller and of a laminate - as a "almost always played electric" instrument compared to the larger solidtop archtops that could and would, in that era, be played as acoustics. That help at all? m Milod, Yes, thank you very much, that is helpful. I think you are right that it is the 60 cycle hum that I was probably referring to. I really am most interested in a semi hollow or hollow body at this point as opposed to a solid body so I'll continue to keep trying them out knowing that any feedback is just part of their character. Again, thanks for the info, I'm an acoustic only guy and coming up to speed on all the technical aspects and jargon has been a challenge! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar12 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 hey Rob.. Ok So that's a different thing The "hum" is just an attribute of the single coil, the reason they made humbuckers was to "buck the hum" so two coils in a single pickup defeated the "hum" More than you ever needed to know will be here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humbucker the other kind of feedback is more micro-phonic, and it's something that guys who own/play hollow body guitars have to deal with. This isn't the same at all as the 60 cyc. hum we've already talked about. This sort of feed back is generated from the resonating of the guitar body, due to the string vibrating, at louder volumes can cause a bit of a chain reaction in side the guitar that will ultimately loop back into the pickups. Since the guitar is hollow, there's really nothing to absorb the "energy" from the strings and body vibrating. This will be a low frequence feedback (unlike the squealing of a microphone to close to the speakers but feed back all the same) the longer you let the strings vibrate the louder that feedback will get. There are also certain notes that when you hold them to sustain are more likely to cause a hollow body to do this sort of feed back.. (B flat is a favorite!!) So guys with Casinos have to deal with BOTH the hum from the P90 and the micro-phonic feed back, in which the louder you play, the more likely you will get this kind of feedback. If you're just playing at bedroom or "in the house" volumes, you wont likely run into the later. the "Hum" or "Buzz"... not much you can do but find a compromise with the positioning of your guitar to the amp. you can move around and hear this buzz get louder or quieter. when it gets quieter,, stay THERE and it wont be as bothersome. Like when we were kids watch UHF channels with rabbit ears and our dads would make us hold the tips of the antenna and move around till the picture was clearer... "OK THERE! Don't MOVE!!!" and that's how we watched Hockey before Cable tv and HD TVs LOL!!! Kidblast, Great explanation as well. You and Milod have educated me more in the last few minutes than in the previous few weeks of my Googling around on these issues. I read somewhere that guys put foam in their hollow bodies to absorb the energy but I'm guessing that must be on stage at high volumes and not at the bedroom level of volume that I'll be playing at. Like you said, I'll likely not to have to worry about that level of feedback and I'm probably worrying too much about all this but I just wanted to understand and cover my bases because I have been to a few stores and told them that I was interested in a Casino and more than a couple of people said 'Whoa, be careful of the feedback' so thanks for getting me up to speed. And being 55 years old I definitely remember fiddling around with the rabbit ears until somebody shouted 'Freeze!' :) Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I, for one, occasionally get misty eyed as I hang on to my favorite tele or les paul or other such like solid body, and remember when we could play loud enough to feed anything back. I'm a fan of the feedback, and use my full hollow body Epiphone ES-175 Premium so I can get that thing in the right spot in front of my little Princeton Recording Ampliphone and at fairly reasonable volumes if you are deaf get it right. on. the verge, and go over and back, lovingly causing and stopping that delicious interaction between man, guitar, and amp. Well, that was awkward. Embrace the feedback, do not fear it, learn to control it and use it. It's a great way to end any Grand Funk t00n. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Guitar12 Rob... yeah, being a flattop acoustic only picker can bring a lot of different outlooks. Been there, done that really. Thing is, you can get feedback from about anything if you're using any sort of electronic amplification. I very, very seldom do what RCT suggests with using feedback as an additional tool in the player's toolkit. I think perhaps it's because I started with very "acoustic" expectations and that feedback was something to battle, just as one battles it when attempting to deliver a speech to a larger audience. Also, since I got my first AE guitars, the old early '70s Ovations (one steel string one nylon), I haven't owned a non-ae guitar. Any electric guitar is a very different instrument compared to an acoustic guitar. That even includes a Gibson or Martin flattop AE type of instrument or... really... an acoustic played on stage with a mike. IMHO the dynamics/"tone" can/should be approached very differently. RCT brought up another option too. The guitar is such a marvelous instrument in any well-crafted iteration of engineering that it can "be" anything as an instrument from a keyboard sort of concept to a "saxophone" sort of concept, and about anything between. So... Frankly for the dollar, I don't think there's an electric guitar out there that beats the standard Epiphone Dot semihollow. Nowadays there's an electronics-enhanced version that seems to be selling at about the same price and folks on here seem to love. I'd personally prefer a few less controls on grounds that the more there is, the more to go wrong. OTOH, some love the Casino for more of the somewhat warmer potential of even a thin full-hollow. <grin> Regardless, I think across the whole product line the Epi may be at minimum among the best guitar buys for the buck, and with a wide range of choices. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabar Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I've been playing hollow body electrics since I started, and controlling feedback is just part of learning the instrument. Distance from the amp, orientation, hand position when not playing, muting unplayed strings, etc. --- plus adjusting EQ on the amp and guitar to minimize resonant frequencies in each venue --- are all skills that can be learned with practice. Many of my favorite players play hollow bodies LOUD without stuffing the bodies or covering the f-holes. If they can do it, we can too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yeah, I shoulda been at least a little serious. Keeping a guitar at band volumes quiet except for the bits you want heard is a big part of being a guitar player, and a hollowbody will help build that skill relatively quickly. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I read somewhere that guys put foam in their hollow bodies to absorb the energy I tried this on a Joe Pass some years back. My conclusion was that it really didn't solve the problem and to my ears, it messed with the tone way to much,, so I took it all out, and instead figured out how to manage the feedback as others have said, so yep you can work around it.. I use my Swingster in sort of high volume situations, - we can get pretty loud - the pickups are pretty resilient but it will feedback. just something to watch out for.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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