johnnyvn Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Hi all, I've posted a little of this on the Gibson forum, because it also involves an ES-330 VOS. I own both a 330 VOS reissue and an Elitist Casino. Unplugged the Casino has the edge...it rings out a little clearer and louder. This could be because the 330 is sunburst and the Casino is natural - paint vs no paint? Or, it could be because the 330 has a Bigsby and the Casino doesn't (although I will be adding one soon). Plugged in, the 330 is simply better. Sonically, it just has more character, and when comparing the Elitist through the same amp, playing the same part, the Casino is simply a bit dull and lifeless when compared directly to the amazing tones of the 330 VOS. Many have already commented how good their Elitist Casino's sound, and I hear ya all on that point, but side by side with the under wound P90's on the 330 VOS, the 330 is simply heaven in every way and simply has more character and "alive-ness" to the tone. So, I'm going to hot rod this Casino a bit, and I'd love to hear from any of you who have made any of these mods. I'd like to: 1) Put on a Bigsby 2) Upgrade the pickups (currently leaning towards non-hum-cancelling Fralin P90's or Lollars or underwound Gibson P90's, if they'll sell them, but I'm open to suggestions). 3) Shimming up the bridge pickup to be closer to the strings, like my 330. 4) Upgrading the bridge 5) Upgrading the nut 6) Changing the electronics to 500k pots with vintage BumbleBee caps. If any of you have done any of these mods and want to share your experiences, please do so, and thanks very much in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingarmadillo Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Hi all, I've posted a little of this on the Gibson forum, because it also involves an ES-330 VOS. I own both a 330 VOS reissue and an Elitist Casino. Unplugged the Casino has the edge...it rings out a little clearer and louder. This could be because the 330 is sunburst and the Casino is natural - paint vs no paint? Or, it could be because the 330 has a Bigsby and the Casino doesn't (although I will be adding one soon). Plugged in, the 330 is simply better. Sonically, it just has more character, and when comparing the Elitist through the same amp, playing the same part, the Casino is simply a bit dull and lifeless when compared directly to the amazing tones of the 330 VOS. Many have already commented how good their Elitist Casino's sound, and I hear ya all on that point, but side by side with the under wound P90's on the 330 VOS, the 330 is simply heaven in every way and simply has more character and "alive-ness" to the tone. So, I'm going to hot rod this Casino a bit, and I'd love to hear from any of you who have made any of these mods. I'd like to: 1) Put on a Bigsby 2) Upgrade the pickups (currently leaning towards non-hum-cancelling Fralin P90's or Lollars or underwound Gibson P90's, if they'll sell them, but I'm open to suggestions). 3) Shimming up the bridge pickup to be closer to the strings, like my 330. 4) Upgrading the bridge 5) Upgrading the nut 6) Changing the electronics to 500k pots with vintage BumbleBee caps. If any of you have done any of these mods and want to share your experiences, please do so, and thanks very much in advance! I had to adjust the pickup height on mine (both the MIK and the Elitist) so I'd try that first and see if that helps. It's already a bone nut so I'm not sure where the upgrade would be there. Same for the pickups - they're already Gibsons, I'd think the underwounds might be worse for character. If you go that route, maybe the pickups could be modded rather than buying new. Along those lines, maybe change out the chrome plate pickup covers for black plastic, some people think the chrome covers sound more muted. The acoustic difference is probably because the 330 has a center block and the Casino doesn't. Also the Casino is a 5 ply top and the 330 is a 3 ply so that might also account for some difference. The paint difference is negligible - the natural still has a finish on it. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis G Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I'll agree with armadillo on the nut. It's already bone so not sure what an upgrade would be. I added a Bibsby to mine: I just didn't like the trapeze tailpiece. I have no prob's with the pickups (it's an Elitist and they're Gibby's). I did replace the P90's in my Wildkat with Lollar's, but the Kat has Epi P90's as stock. The switch is CTS. Not sure what the stock pots are but that may be worth your while. I've had this thing for about 4-5 years now, and paid just over half what the street price is today, but even at today's coin, this is one hell of a guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvn Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 I had to adjust the pickup height on mine (both the MIK and the Elitist) so I'd try that first and see if that helps. It's already a bone nut so I'm not sure where the upgrade would be there. Same for the pickups - they're already Gibsons, I'd think the underwounds might be worse for character. If you go that route, maybe the pickups could be modded rather than buying new. Along those lines, maybe change out the chrome plate pickup covers for black plastic, some people think the chrome covers sound more muted. The acoustic difference is probably because the 330 has a center block and the Casino doesn't. Also the Casino is a 5 ply top and the 330 is a 3 ply so that might also account for some difference. The paint difference is negligible - the natural still has a finish on it. Good luck. Flying, thanks for your thoughts. In regards to the pickups, how did you adjust height? Did you change the height of the pole pieces or the entire pickups somehow? I would like to try that, but wasn't sure whether I should raising pole pieces or the entire thing using shims or so. The sound of the underwound P90's on the 330 is awesome! So much character, clarity, snarl, jangle....just perfectly suits my taste. Having said that, I wouldn't mind the Casino being a bit more on the high end and a bit less on the midrange, just so I have some different flavors in the two guitars. Perhaps raising the existing pickups will do that; if not, I'll go with third party. And yes, I've heard that about the metal covers. Might have to switch them out regardless. In regards to the nut, the ES-330 uses a "Vintage Style Nylon", and my 330 stays perfectly in tune when using the Bigsby. I'll try it with the bone first, and perhaps it will work fine. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the ES-330 has no center block...that's a 335. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvn Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 I'll agree with armadillo on the nut. It's already bone so not sure what an upgrade would be. I added a Bibsby to mine: I just didn't like the trapeze tailpiece. I have no prob's with the pickups (it's an Elitist and they're Gibby's). I did replace the P90's in my Wildkat with Lollar's, but the Kat has Epi P90's as stock. The switch is CTS. Not sure what the stock pots are but that may be worth your while. I've had this thing for about 4-5 years now, and paid just over half what the street price is today, but even at today's coin, this is one hell of a guitar! Dennis, thanks. I loves me some Bigsby! Yours looks sweet. Which Bigsby is it? I can't tell what the real difference is between the B7 and B70, but I think I would go with the B70, which is what I think yours is. Did you encounter any issues having the Bigsby installed? Thanks much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis G Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Dennis, thanks. I loves me some Bigsby! Yours looks sweet. Which Bigsby is it? I can't tell what the real difference is between the B7 and B70, but I think I would go with the B70, which is what I think yours is. Did you encounter any issues having the Bigsby installed? Thanks much... It's a B7, and no, they're pretty easy to install. Just make sure everything lines up right. It's an easy mod and I think well worth it. It's been a while and I'm too lazy to do a search, but as I recall, the biggest difference between the B7 and B70 was the finish. I may be wrong on that, but in any event, I'm happy with what I've got. And thanks for the comment. I like it a lot, even though the tobacco burst is probably my least favorite guitar finish of all time. Go figure, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis G Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 FWIW, I have four guitars with Bigsby's, and none have a roller bridge. I'll admit to only using the B very subtley, not dive bombing, hence I have not had any tuning issues. Food for thought...just try it before you "fix" it, because you will get the inevitable "tuning" comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvn Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 FWIW, I have four guitars with Bigsby's, and none have a roller bridge. I'll admit to only using the B very subtley, not dive bombing, hence I have not had any tuning issues. Food for thought...just try it before you "fix" it, because you will get the inevitable "tuning" comments. Yeah, thanks Dennis. I actually have no intention of a roller bridge, as my 330 works super well with a Tone Pro's bridge. Just was thinking that the Tone Pro's might be better than the Tune-a-matic that is on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the ES-330 has no center block...that's a 335. Absolutely correct - there is no center block on a 330. Some Casino versions come with a center post, such as the 50th Anniversary '61 Casino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvn Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Absolutely correct - there is no center block on a 330. Some Casino versions come with a center post, such as the 50th Anniversary '61 Casino. I looked at my Casino today, and it's interesting that at the F-Hole, the top appears to be about 40% thinner than the top of my ES-330 (I'm referring to the wood top of the guitar). I wonder why the Casino is so much thinner? The point being that I'd be hesitant to screw into such a thin top, as it's hard for me to imagine the screws holding unless the wood were thicker where a Bigsby would mount than it appears to be at the F-Hole, or unless there were some solid block of wood in there to which the screws would take hold. I'm more leaning towards a Bigsby B6, which requires no screws, along with this product to help it work better: http://townerusa.com/towner-usa-about/ Any more thoughts would be appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 the top appears to be about 40% thinner than the top of my ES-330 (I'm referring to the wood top of the guitar). I wonder why the Casino is so much thinner? maybe I'm just thinking out loud, but that may be a few factors. other than the general idea that thye're using better materials and better wood, my thoughts would be for resonance. the thinner top will resonate more than would a thicker piece of wood. The point being that I'd be hesitant to screw into such a thin top, I have to agree. I did some poking around, and checked the Vibramate web site (which allows one to install a bigsby without modifying anything.) looks like they don't offer one for the casino.. Bummer.. about the pickups, as mentioned, you probably already have USA Gibson P90s. if you look at the specs for all elitists, with regard to the electronics (swtiches, pots, pickups) I believe that you'll find these are probably all the same parts that would go in to a USA made gibson. verses a regular production model that will use imports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingarmadillo Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Flying, thanks for your thoughts. In regards to the pickups, how did you adjust height? Did you change the height of the pole pieces or the entire pickups somehow? I would like to try that, but wasn't sure whether I should raising pole pieces or the entire thing using shims or so. The sound of the underwound P90's on the 330 is awesome! So much character, clarity, snarl, jangle....just perfectly suits my taste. Having said that, I wouldn't mind the Casino being a bit more on the high end and a bit less on the midrange, just so I have some different flavors in the two guitars. Perhaps raising the existing pickups will do that; if not, I'll go with third party. And yes, I've heard that about the metal covers. Might have to switch them out regardless. In regards to the nut, the ES-330 uses a "Vintage Style Nylon", and my 330 stays perfectly in tune when using the Bigsby. I'll try it with the bone first, and perhaps it will work fine. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the ES-330 has no center block...that's a 335. Thanks again! The only way to adjust the height on the dog ears is to shim the pickups. You might be able to adjust the individual pole pieces, but shims would be more consistent over the entire width. However, if you want more treble you could try adjusting the pole pieces on the treble side. I do agree, the Gibsons on my Elitist sound more midrange than the ones on my MIK Casino which are brighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvn Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 the top appears to be about 40% thinner than the top of my ES-330 (I'm referring to the wood top of the guitar). I wonder why the Casino is so much thinner? maybe I'm just thinking out loud, but that may be a few factors. other than the general idea that thye're using better materials and better wood, my thoughts would be for resonance. the thinner top will resonate more than would a thicker piece of wood. The point being that I'd be hesitant to screw into such a thin top, I have to agree. I did some poking around, and checked the Vibramate web site (which allows one to install a bigsby without modifying anything.) looks like they don't offer one for the casino.. Bummer.. about the pickups, as mentioned, you probably already have USA Gibson P90s. if you look at the specs for all elitists, with regard to the electronics (swtiches, pots, pickups) I believe that you'll find these are probably all the same parts that would go in to a USA made gibson. verses a regular production model that will use imports. KidB, thanks for your post. Interestingly, the Elitists don't have tremendously good electronics...250k pots, small size pots (to use regular sized pots, you have to route the holes larger!), and who knows what is being used for caps. The pickups are some form of US Gibson P90's, but regular Gib P90's don't say "Epiphone" on the bottom of them. I think the main thing about Elitist Casinos is the care that goes into the body, which is flawless and wonderful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I have a Chet Atkins from 2004, and the pickups I'm not toally familiar with (some 50X series supposedly made in USA) but they sound pretty good to me so I've never thought about swapping them out. (If I did, I'd go straight for Classic 57 / classic 57+) also, I've never looked at the pots now that you mention it. the fit and finish of my Chet is pretty stunning, gorgeous guitar. pardon the porn.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 wups.. my first ever double post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulvavroop Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I'm pretty sure Lollar makes a shim for Casinos. I have good luck adjusting the poles though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPS1976 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 KidB, thanks for your post. Interestingly, the Elitists don't have tremendously good electronics...250k pots, small size pots (to use regular sized pots, you have to route the holes larger!), and who knows what is being used for caps. The pickups are some form of US Gibson P90's, but regular Gib P90's don't say "Epiphone" on the bottom of them. I think the main thing about Elitist Casinos is the care that goes into the body, which is flawless and wonderful. the pots on the Elitist Casino are small but they are 500k. The pickups are Gibson P-90's. the "regular" Gibson P90's do not have the Epiphone sticker on them because they weren't made for Epiphone. Same pickup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPS1976 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 wups.. my first ever double post! yep, those pickups were made by Gibson for the Elitist series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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