Sad Day in Montana

[TommyK]

A small air plane loaded with 14 passengers, 7 were children, left California this weekend. It went down in Butte, Mt. No surviviors. The original destination was Bozeman for what is believed Skiing. The pilot changed his destination to mid-flight for, currently, unknown reasons. Spring break for some schools over here. Five vicitims were from one family.

 

Sad... sad. My thoughts and prayers are with the families.

[albertjohn]

Made the early morning news in the UK too.

 

Very sad indeed.

[Gilliangirl]

This was on our news as well. How awful.

[NevadaPic]

A sad day indeed...

[Gitfidl]

You take off with full tanks and as you fly you burn off gas. As the gas burns off the CG moves rearward. When you are trying to land (slow speed) you are trying to trim the airplane in a manner it does not like -- the elevator up and the angle of attack is steper than normal glide. If heavier people are in the rear that moves the CG even further back. As the CG moves back and the elevator is trimmed "nose up" the control sifts to rudder instad of aileron. At any point during such a configuration a cross control (aileron to the left for example and rudder to the right .. can stall out one wing) That results in a spin. You need at least 3000 feet to recover from a spin. You should not practice spins lower than 6000 since you may need more than minimum to recover. (depends on variables) The "ice" accidents are often a case of one wing stalled out and the plane spins in.

 

I once foolishly burned off ONE wing (I was used to Cessnas and this was a Piper .. so as I tried to slow for a landing the plane wanted to bank to the left. I realized the left tank was full and the right was close to empty. So I had to fly around for an hour to burn off enough weight in the left wing. You never tell passengers about bad stuff. They think it is like driving a car only higher. Most of us survive a mistake or two and get the "fear of G-d" into us. Then we go back to "the book." It is a good reason NOT to have an instrument rating and a good reason to drive if you need to go any where.

 

Weather is the most dangerous factor in flying. But weight/balance has an "envelope" and the plane becomes very dangerous outside of the "envelope"

[powerpopper]

You take off with full tanks and as you fly you burn off gas. As the gas burns off the CG moves rearward. When you are trying to land (slow speed) you are trying to trim the airplane in a manner it does not like -- the elevator up and the angle of attack is steper than normal glide. If heavier people are in the rear that moves the CG even further back. As the CG moves back and the elevator is trimmed "nose up" the control sifts to rudder instad of aileron. At any point during such a configuration a cross control (aileron to the left for example and rudder to the right .. can stall out one wing) That results in a spin. You need at least 3000 feet to recover from a spin. You should not practice spins lower than 6000 since you may need more than minimum to recover. (depends on variables) The "ice" accidents are often a case of one wing stalled out and the plane spins in.

 

I once foolishly burned off ONE wing (I was used to Cessnas and this was a Piper .. so as I tried to slow for a landing the plane wanted to bank to the left. I realized the left tank was full and the right was close to empty. So I had to fly around for an hour to burn off enough weight in the left wing. You never tell passengers about bad stuff. They think it is like driving a car only higher. Most of us survive a mistake or two and get the "fear of G-d" into us. Then we go back to "the book." It is a good reason NOT to have an instrument rating and a good reason to drive if you need to go any where.

 

Weather is the most dangerous factor in flying. But weight/balance has an "envelope" and the plane becomes very dangerous outside of the "envelope"

 

Thanks for sharing that in terms that a layman such as myself can understand. Apparently, we will not know for a while what caused this crash, but I pray for the lives that were lost in the Bozeman and Buffalo crashes this year.

[Gilliangirl]

Those little planes scare the daylights out of me. Wasn't it a Piper that John Kennedy Jr was flying? And those Cessnas.... always hearing about crashes with those things.

[ksdaddy]

I didn't fly until I was 46. No fear, just no occasion. I've always wanted to go in a bi-plane but the closest I've gotten is watching DVDs of the old WWII Stearman training films. Silly maybe, but it's escapism. Down in Bar Harbor they offer biplane rides for a couple hundred bucks, maybe I'll get my chance this summer. I may wear Pampers though.

[Gilliangirl]

I didn't fly until I was 46. No fear' date=' just no occasion. I've always wanted to go in a bi-plane but the closest I've gotten is watching DVDs of the old WWII Stearman training films. Silly maybe, but it's escapism. Down in Bar Harbor they offer biplane rides for a couple hundred bucks, maybe I'll get my chance this summer. I may wear Pampers though.[/quote']

What's a bi-plane? Are those the ones that skim along water? I always wanted to try one of those. I think I first saw them on the Flipper show (remember Flipper the dolphin?) Or maybe it was Gentle Ben. Or Daktari. Well, it was one of those really old shows.

[Guest]

What's a bi-plane? Are those the ones that skim along water? I always wanted to try one of those. I think I first saw them on the Flipper show (remember Flipper the dolphin?) Or maybe it was Gentle Ben. Or Daktari. Well' date=' it was one of those really old shows.[/quote']

 

Here's a biplane, Karen:

 

 

Fred

[Gilliangirl]

Thanks Fred! You'd NEVER get me in one of those LOL We have an aerospace museum here in Calgary and I believe we've got one of those. I like the place because I have a thing about helicopters. If I'd known that I could use my student loan funds for helicopter school before I became a social worker, I'd be a helicopter pilot today!

[Gitfidl]

 

Thanks for sharing that in terms that a layman such as myself can understand. Apparently' date=' we will not know for a while what caused this crash, but I pray for the lives that were lost in the Bozeman and Buffalo crashes this year.[/quote']

 

Of course we pray -- for all the departed souls. But often we want to understand what happened. An explanation of how a tragedy could have occurred (like the plane landing in the Hudson). We a seek "answers" -- to obvious questions.

 

The purpose of providing the insight is for the original poster to know it didn't just fall out of the sky without reason (wouldn't that be chaos? If things happened without reasons. But there are reasons and it does not diminish the tragic nature of the event to consider what they reasons could be -- it merely responds to the natural curiousity one generally has regarding the "why" of things that should not have happened)

 

Nor does it prevent us from praying. There is a nice prayer group at http://www.twolisteners.org/ in Oceanside and they have a worldwide prayer network you can join. You can make a modest donation to them as well. They will send you prayers and biblical quotations that will make you feel better.

 

They will help you to find peace before your time comes. You never know (no man does) when your time comes. Best to be ready. Contact them and ask them to help you with getting over this tragic event and then you can also pray for other problems around the world. I know the people who minister there and they are both really terrific people. You'll be glad you contacted them.

[powerpopper]

 

Of course we pray -- for all the departed souls. But often we want to understand what happened. An explanation of how a tragedy could have occurred (like the plane landing in the Hudson). We a seek "answers" -- to obvious questions.

 

The limitations of this medium of communication being what they are, I hope you did not take my response as sarcastic or smart-alecky. I really do appreciate you talking through the possible causes of the crash and I thought your explanation was great.

 

The investigators said right after the Bozeman crash not to jump to conclusions that the plane was carrying too much weight and I seem to recall one of the spokesmen admonishing the journalists on this issue. All I meant to say is that the definitive "why" will come later, if at all, and in the meanwhile it is quite sad that something like 3 entire families including 7 (?) children under the age of 10 perished in that crash.

 

As it happens, I work for a man whose son was on the Buffalo plane that crashed, so that has touched me in a more personal way.

 

Seriously, thank you for your comment and I meant no disrespect.

[Gitfidl]

The picture in my Avatar is me playing at their home church in Oceanside. I do not go every Sunday or even regularly (I probably should). But I have known them for a number of years ... come to think of it I prayed with them the day of 9/11/01 -- that far back. I think there were 80 people that day (I can only describe that as shock). Prayer was the only thing to do that day. But the day that I had a reckoning .. a direct connect with God .. was holding my 1st born daughter in her first few moments -- that was purely awe - joy - shock- fear. I definitely turned to God that day... and I prayed for guidance on how to be a good father. (She is 38 now and has two children and her sister is 35 -- both of them were a reckoning ... not 30 seconds old when the nurse handed them to me).

[TexasAQHA]

This fam will be in my prayers....

 

If My children are called home, I certainly hope I am with them.

 

 

 

I fly a Challenger II Ultralight.... In my opinion flying is much safer than anything else I do.

Weather is one of the biggest challenges I face when flying. a few years ago I hit a storm front

while flying back from Mexico. I had plenty of fuel when I took off but flying into the front I might as

well been flying backwards. We were off the Coast of Texas and literally soared in for a landing. Lost both

wings but no one was hurt. It took the FAA 7 years to finish that investigation. I learned a valuable lesson,

and fortunately live to tell about it. I still fly, and even in a much smaller plane. It is a passion and I feel it is

a safe one.

[TommyK]

The picture in my Avatar is me playing at their home church in Oceanside. I do not go every Sunday or even regularly (I probably should). But I have known them for a number of years ... come to think of it I prayed with them the day of 9/11/01 -- that far back. I think there were 80 people that day (I can only describe that as shock). Prayer was the only thing to do that day. But the day that I had a reckoning .. a direct connect with God .. was holding my 1st born daughter in her first few moments -- that was purely awe - joy - shock- fear. I definitely turned to God that day... and I prayed for guidance on how to be a good father. (She is 38 now and has two children and her sister is 35 -- both of them were a reckoning ... not 30 seconds old when the nurse handed them to me).

 

If it helps Gitfidl, let the surviving family know that someone from north central Illinois, who doesn't know them from Adam, is praying for them in their grief.

[Gitfidl]

I understand and I too pray. We (our family) just lost a member last month -- our in-house Greek - a good buddy and my daughter's father-in-law. Survived the battle of Pusan Perimeter in the U.S. 25th I.D. under general Walker and also was a member of the Greek resistance as a kid against both Nazi's and Commies. He used to come over to my place in the morning and say "where's that damned coffee pot??" and we'd go over to the desert and shoot tin cans.

 

A tragic accident like the one in Montana is very hard to experience for everyone. By the way I used to "handle" 20 major injury accidents a month up there in north central Illinois and once I had to get a kid out from under the ice (brrrrr). We both rode in the ambulance that night. My first job after the Navy: Trooper. Not an easy job to be sure. 2900 applied, 100 started the ISP Academy. 29 graduated. I graduated 6th.

[TommyK]

Let me not be the last: Thanks for your service to our country.