Nighthawk - Saddle upgrade

[Nightscientist]

Dear Gibson lovers,

Thanks for the quality content I have been reading here through the months!

I tried to get some knowledge out of the web and apply it to my Gibson Nighthawk Special 1996 (2 pickups). I always found the neck humbucker to be super muddy and absent of middle definition (The neck as well but I use it for distortion so I don't mind that much)...

So I tried to upgrade the saddles to Gotoh Brass, as I read some members had night and day results when replacing the stock pot metal ones.

To my disappointment I found marginal, if not unnoticeable improvement. The strings length and distance to the frets had been carefully measured before the upgrade, running through the same amp and setting, pickup height included. I could only spot out which saddle is which in the A / B test because of the mistakes in one of the recordings 😆.

My personal experience is that the saddle upgrade is a placebo effect. But I might by deaf altogether...

I love the unplugged sound of this guitar and I can't understand why it gets so blurry when electrified.

Here is my question :

• I am considering pulling my wallet to replace the neck Gibson pickup by a Lollar. Do you think it is worth it, or do you think I might face the same kind of disappointment? Can I pickup really change the sound of a guitar? (if you don't upgrade from a low end chinese pickups I mean...)

 

 

 

[merciful-evans]

Hi NS,

It can change the sound. You want more definition, so a lower output replacement would be sensible. You can tell I'm no expert. Experts talk about amplitude being different than impedance. But lower output is the extent of my understanding. If you do it may be out of (volume) balance with the other pickups (you have 2 or 3).

I suppose you have tried rolling back the volume at the guitar already? and tried it with the coil split? 

What pickup is your neck. Is that the M series mini-humbucker? You will probably need to replace it with a similar sized pickup.  Pickup depth will need checking.

[Nightscientist]

Hi @merciful-evans,

Thanks for your humble yet insightful reply.

I indeed rolled back the volume on the mini-humbucker with no success, just less volume, ha.

The interesting part is that in coil split position the sound is quite correct (cf sound enclosed).

• Does anyone know the output of the original neck pickup?

01 Split VS Humbucker.mp3

Edited November 1, 2020 by Nightscientist
Added picture

[merciful-evans]

Yes the split coil sounds sweet.

I have checked out specs but can find no details as to pickup ID. Someone on here will know. You could wait and bump the thread a few times, but I suggest trying to ID the pickup first. If you lift it out and check underneath it may have a sticker or mark that would be helpful. Try that first.

Then, the best thing IMO is too contact Gibson direct and ask them for pickup specs.

[Nightscientist]

Awesome, thanks for your help!

I'll try to dismantle the guitar soon if nobody knows.

[Eracer_Team]

I don't have experience with mini Hum-buggies but

Try lowering the pickups with they height adjustments screws, depending on the guitar you may need to lower them a lot

[Nightscientist]

On 11/1/2020 at 8:50 PM, merciful-evans said:

I suggest trying to ID the pickup first. If you lift it out and check underneath it may have a sticker or mark that would be helpful.

So the Mini-humbucker has written: PA~NO XXXXXXX

X : serial number of the pickup
~ :  a small tap covers what's written underneath

I don't think the serial number gives any information about the model. Should I contact Gibson? By mail?

 

7 hours ago, Eracer_Team said:

Try lowering the pickups with they height adjustments screws, depending on the guitar you may need to lower them a lot

Thanks for your input @Eracer_Team!

The problem is when I lower the pickups a lot, their split position is becoming super weak and losing definition... I looks like having split coil on both humbuckers makes it a capricious instrument.

 

 

[Nightscientist]

After a little digging, I found the pickups reference on an old site!

Rythm: Special M-Series mini HB
Treble: Special M-Series slanted HB

Does anyone know the output of those pickups?

 

 

[merciful-evans]

Yes contact Gibson quoting the numbers you found.

Additionally, take a look here. Its not exactly what you want, but Nighthawk Chris’s comments may be interesting

 

 

I looked at Creamery, but only found replacement for Firebird mini HB. They may be the same for Nighthawk. These are the specs:

Magnets	Alnico 5 or Ceramic
Coil Wire	42AWG
Lead Wire	Vintage Braided or Modern 4-Way
Bridge Output	7.1k
Neck Output	6.3k

 

Final option, a multimeter will enable you to check output of your HBs yourself. They start at about $12 I think.

https://ourpastimes.com/how-to-test-a-guitar-pickup-with-a-multimeter-12390700.html

[Nightscientist]

Thanks @merciful-evans,

The multimeter displays 14K for both Humbuckers, and 7K when they split.

Probably the ones on Nighthawk are very specific!

 

[Karloff]

3 hours ago, merciful-evans said:

Yes contact Gibson quoting the numbers you found.

Additionally, take a look here. Its not exactly what you want, but Nighthawk Chris’s comments may be interesting

 

 

I looked at Creamery, but only found replacement for Firebird mini HB. They may be the same for Nighthawk. These are the specs:

Magnets	Alnico 5 or Ceramic
Coil Wire	42AWG
Lead Wire	Vintage Braided or Modern 4-Way
Bridge Output	7.1k
Neck Output	6.3k

 

Final option, a multimeter will enable you to check output of your HBs yourself. They start at about $12 I think.

https://ourpastimes.com/how-to-test-a-guitar-pickup-with-a-multimeter-12390700.html

I initially replaced my stock Firebird pickups with vintage wound FB pickups from the Creamery. Jaime seems to be a nice guy, don't have anything bad to say about the guy.  his FB pickups sounded great but the vintage specs were a bit "soft".  and even though they were potted, they would squeal at higher volumes. I contacted him and he said no problem, send them back and he would rewind them. I ask the cost. a week later I asked the cost, two more times over a 3rd week I asked the cost.  thats when I decided to go with the Seymour Duncans Merc shared info above. I REALLY like them.  Jaime @ the Creamery makes sweet pickups. but it's just him. I imagine he gets backed up. 

[merciful-evans]

4 hours ago, Nightscientist said:

Thanks @merciful-evans,

The multimeter displays 14K for both Humbuckers, and 7K when they split.

Probably the ones on Nighthawk are very specific!

 

 

Holy bangin' goats! No wonder you're in the mud. That's too rich for comfort. Those cant they be original can they?

I would certainly change those for something normal. 

[Nightscientist]

2 minutes ago, merciful-evans said:

 

Holy bangin' goats! No wonder you're in the mud. That's too rich for comfort. Those cant they be original can they?

I would certainly change those for something normal. 

 

100% stock pickups 😅

[merciful-evans]

1 hour ago, Karloff said:

I initially replaced my stock Firebird pickups with vintage wound FB pickups from the Creamery. Jaime seems to be a nice guy, don't have anything bad to say about the guy.  his FB pickups sounded great but the vintage specs were a bit "soft".  and even though they were potted, they would squeal at higher volumes. I contacted him and he said no problem, send them back and he would rewind them. I ask the cost. a week later I asked the cost, two more times over a 3rd week I asked the cost.  thats when I decided to go with the Seymour Duncans Merc shared info above. I REALLY like them.  Jaime @ the Creamery makes sweet pickups. but it's just him. I imagine he gets backed up. 

 

I sure he is very busy. That's always been my impression. He made two lots for me. He needs help I reckon 

[merciful-evans]

1 minute ago, Nightscientist said:

 

100% stock pickups 😅

 

I always thought I'd like to try out a Nighthawk & Blueshawk. Now I don't know what to think.

[NighthawkChris]

IME, the Seymour Duncan pickups for the bridge are good alternatives to what comes stock in the 90s NHs.  I prefer the 59 slanted HB because it is a lower output - i.e. more "vintage" sounding.  You also have to take into account that the NH is like the Fender-Gibson hybrid of sorts.  I set mine up like a Telecaster (use Fender's specs for string height, pickup height,  etc.) and it gets nice sounds.  It also can have sort of that Strat quack too in the 2 and 4 positions when you split the coils.  Either way, if you're into a more articulate sound for the neck, try a more vintage spec mini-HB - I suppose a lower resistance pickup say in the 7k-8k range.  I personally like the mini-HB that comes stock, but that doesn't help you out...  But as you said, once you split the coils, your "hotness" decreases as it should.  Either way, the thing is to think of this NH as a Gibson Telecaster/Strat, so you want a more single coil sort of sound to get those snappy vintage tones.  It won't sound like a Les Paul or play like one, so no use trying this either.  It's just going to be a thing of its own really, but more "Fendery" if you get the drift.  String through body, 25.5" scale, 5 position switch...  Yeah SORT OF shaped like a LP, but not quite.  Looks are deceiving.  Anyhow, I have 3 of the 3-pickup models.  I love them and hope you do too. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by NighthawkChris

[Nightscientist]

Yeah I like the warmer Fendery sound that comes out of the instrument.

Humbuckers are just not working in clean sound.

[Nightscientist]

I'll be interested in knowing the height of your pickups @NighthawkChris!

[Nightscientist]

BTW, can I just plug a resistor in the circuit to reduce its warmth or will it alter the sound?

[NighthawkChris]

https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/articles/214343803-How-do-I-set-up-my-Telecaster-guitar-properly-

Here is what I use to set up my NHs.  As I said, I set it up like a Tele - vintage style as they refer to pickup heights for several different types of pickups.  They mention 6/64" on bass side and 5/64" on treble side for both neck and bridge pickups, so I'm in that neighborhood generally.  If it is too hot, I lower it a tick, but still in the ballpark of the Fender spec.  Really, this is a guideline so giving or taking a little won't be necessarily wrong.  Anyhow, you asked what I set my pickup height to so this is what I have to share.  

I also wouldn't necessarily add a resistor into the circuit as you have suggested.  I mean, you could, but there's never been a design that I ran into that had a stand-alone resistor in the electronics.  Depending on where you put it, you could even brighten up the sound, because essentially, the resistance of the pot is something the small signal from the pickup loads onto that is picked up by the amp input.  If you put the resistance in series, you could affect the frequency response, but it would be a hard-fixed response so to speak.  Anyhow, I would avoid doing this.  If you really want to change tonal response, I'd focus more on the cap in the tone circuit personally before adding "permanent" resistance in the circuitry.  I go with 47uF for 500kOhm pots, 22uF for 350kOhm - sort of standard AFAIK.  Basically, I would like to understand where you plan on doing this, how, etc. if you must do this, but generally, I wouldn't try to do this. 

The volume pot is supposed to be sort of Fender (250kOhm) at 300kOhm linear tapered.  That's how mine are done up and what Gibson's schematics say to use.  I rewired an older Epiphone NH I had years ago like the Gibson NH and this 300kOhm volume linear taper pot was what I used.  And generally, the idea is the higher the resistance, the more bright you get.  Good luck once again!  

Edited November 4, 2020 by NighthawkChris

[merciful-evans]

16 hours ago, NighthawkChris said:

https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/articles/214343803-How-do-I-set-up-my-Telecaster-guitar-properly-

Here is what I use to set up my NHs.  As I said, I set it up like a Tele - vintage style as they refer to pickup heights for several different types of pickups.  They mention 6/64" on bass side and 5/64" on treble side for both neck and bridge pickups, so I'm in that neighborhood generally.  If it is too hot, I lower it a tick, but still in the ballpark of the Fender spec.  Really, this is a guideline so giving or taking a little won't be necessarily wrong.  Anyhow, you asked what I set my pickup height to so this is what I have to share.  

I also wouldn't necessarily add a resistor into the circuit as you have suggested.  I mean, you could, but there's never been a design that I ran into that had a stand-alone resistor in the electronics.  Depending on where you put it, you could even brighten up the sound, because essentially, the resistance of the pot is something the small signal from the pickup loads onto that is picked up by the amp input.  If you put the resistance in series, you could affect the frequency response, but it would be a hard-fixed response so to speak.  Anyhow, I would avoid doing this.  If you really want to change tonal response, I'd focus more on the cap in the tone circuit personally before adding "permanent" resistance in the circuitry.  I go with 47uF for 500kOhm pots, 22uF for 350kOhm - sort of standard AFAIK.  Basically, I would like to understand where you plan on doing this, how, etc. if you must do this, but generally, I wouldn't try to do this. 

The volume pot is supposed to be sort of Fender (250kOhm) at 300kOhm linear tapered.  That's how mine are done up and what Gibson's schematics say to use.  I rewired an older Epiphone NH I had years ago like the Gibson NH and this 300kOhm volume linear taper pot was what I used.  And generally, the idea is the higher the resistance, the more bright you get.  Good luck once again!  

 

I was hoping you would happen along here 👌

[NighthawkChris]

Oh my mistake with regards to the caps I suggested... I meant the 0.047uF and 0.022uF. You could say nF (nanoFarad) but typically everything you’ll see is referring to the measurement in microFarads. Either way, the 47 and 22 are the important numbers so to speak to remember. The higher the potentiometer’s resistance, the higher the capacitance should be - per what a vast majority of designs are physically realized. 

[Nightscientist]

That's some amazing insights you shared here @NighthawkChris!

I want to thank you for that. So I'll refrain from taking unconsidered soldering decisions and will primarily focus on trying to enjoy my sound... having in mind I might switch to lower input mic down the road ;).

The point I wanted to highlight with this post is: saddle upgrade won't transform your NH sound (contrary to what some previous post tried to sate).

But thanks to you guys, I understood the mud problem I am experiencing in my NH is the pickup output is far too hot! ❤️

[NighthawkChris]

Oh another thing I noticed is the typo of 350kOhm in my first post... I meant 250kOhm. Damn iPhone! Or maybe it’s my fat fingers haha!

[NighthawkChris]

Another thing I wanted to add here is saddles like those on a strat for the most part are beneficial when you use a trem. If they are a material like graphite, this is good because it is one less place for the string to bind up on - a lot of the reason Strats have issues staying in tune once the trem gets used. Of course up at the nut is another place to get strings bound up on the trees or even the nut, but we are talking about saddles. Typically saddles need replacement IMHO if you have some cheap pot metal or something that catches the string. I suppose that bends could cause issues too. Overall I would replace saddles for stability reasons mostly, not for tonal changes.