Help me date my 335

[differentsky]

Hi there,

I bought this es-335 TD 3 years ago. It was sold as a 1968, all original, and came with a premium price tag. It has an amazing tone, plays great. The only minor downside is the narrow neck (40 mm) which is not ideal for me, but I can deal with it.

But I was having second thoughts, since the seller had hidden a few things from me (the guitar has been partially sprayed somewhere down the line, and the bridge had gone flat a bit, and a new one was needed to  avoid playability/intonation issues).  So I decided to have a close look at the serial number -you know how tricky it is to identify Gibsons from the late 60s. The serial number is 907 393. And it seems to point at a 1970 model!

So that's a real issue for me, because it swings the guitar from pre-Norlin into Norlin era... I'm no historical expert, but for instance, the guitar has no volute at the back of the headstock. I've read this is a typical Norlin move. Here's a few pics, could you guys help assess the year? What should I look for to determine the year precisely? Thanks a lot,

 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by differentsky
mispelling

[merciful-evans]

You posted pics which is helpful. I'm no expert but there are a few here. The best option might just be to phone Gibson and ask. That usually works it seems. Phone/contact info at bottom of this page.

[Grog]

Mine is a 1967 & looks very similar to yours. If you could get a look at your pot codes with a dental mirror or a WiFi Borescope that would help date it. Example 1376847, 137=CTS, 68=year pot was made & 47=week of year pot was made. Also, it looks like your bridge has nylon saddles & that helps identify it.

[differentsky]

10 minutes ago, Grog said:

Mine is a 1967 & looks very similar to yours. If you could get a look at your pot codes with a dental mirror or a WiFi Borescope that would help date it. Example 1376847, 137=CTS, 68=year pot was made & 47=week of year pot was made. Also, it looks like your bridge has nylon saddles & that helps identify it.

Hey Thanks! I'm gonna try that over the week-end.

 

[LG King]

You are obviously not a 'player'...but a 'collector'.

No problem there. All products (especially so-called vintage) are subject to scams.

Now, if you were a 'player'...as in being on stage 3-4-5 nights a week either solo or in a band, and it didn't 'float-your-boat'...then just sell it and look for something else. 

[differentsky]

10 minutes ago, LG King said:

You are obviously not a 'player'...but a 'collector'.

No problem there. All products (especially so-called vintage) are subject to scams.

Now, if you were a 'player'...as in being on stage 3-4-5 nights a week either solo or in a band, and it didn't 'float-your-boat'...then just sell it and look for something else. 

I didn't realize we knew each other.

I'm no collector, I've been a player for 25 years. I just wanna know whether that seller (a well-established brick n mortar store, not an individual on Reverb) is doing a poor job or not. It's good to know exactly what you bought, don't you think? Since Gibsons are difficult to date correctly, I figured the Gibson forum was the right place to ask. Maybe it isn't. Maybe forums are just for collectors questions, and players are just oblivious to anything gear-related.

[differentsky]

For who might be interested in this, here's the answer I got from another forum:

"It's almost certainly a 1968.

Without looking at the serial number, there are a few things we can go off. Fairly conclusive are the following: no volute or 'made in USA' stamp almost always means before 1970. Small F-holes usually means before mid 1968 and very rarely after the end of '68. Witch hat knobs and narrow bevel guards means later than 1966. Horns that are roundish if not quite Mickey Mouse ears suggest late '67 to late '69.

As far as the serial number is concerned, I just had a quick look and in the data extracted from the logs, yes, yours suggests a 1970. However, it's important to understand that Gibson only intended the serial number as an internal accounting system and had no idea anyone would be using them to date guitars fifty years on - accordingly, the numbers were split into batches and handed out to the various assembly lines to use as they got to them. The database we use to date Gibsons by now is the result of some very good detective work assembling when those batches were recorded in the log books, but it shouldn't be considered a definitive list and it's possible there are batches still not correctly ordered in the time line. Where features comprehensively point to one year and the serial number to another, I would look to features over the serial number.

Just looking at the recorded batches of serial numbers, 899*** appears as possible in 68 and then 91**** is also listed as possible in 68 with a note saying 'not consistent in this range' - given yours is in the middle of those batches the idea that the number you have was used in 1968 seems much more likely than a '70 guitar with overwhelmingly '68 features.

As far as the nut width is concerned, Gibson phased in the narrower nut during 1965 on the majority of existing models, and in most cases those models retained the narrow nut until 1978. The confusion comes with models added to the range in the late 60s that had wider nuts, leading to people believing that all models must have reverted to the earlier spec. The only ES3** style guitar I know of to have the wider nut in the late 60s is the Crest which typically had a huge early 50s style neck, other than that most ES models were narrow until the mid 70s and the 335/345 until '78 (the 355 might have changed a little earlier)."

[kaicho8888]

1968  has serial 903000-920899 according to "Blue Book of Electric Guitars, Sixth Edition, Gibson Serialization"

Each of the pots are usually enclosed in a shielded cover... cannot see the pot dates.

 

[JO'C]

9 hours ago, kaicho8888 said:

1968  has serial 903000-920899 according to "Blue Book of Electric Guitars, Sixth Edition, Gibson Serialization"

Each of the pots are usually enclosed in a shielded cover... cannot see the pot dates.

 

 

Interesting... I have the 11th Edition and it lists 1968 as 895039-896999 and 899000-899999 and 91000-999999, none of these ranges include the OP's S/N which is in the 1970 range in the 11th Edition. I have a 1969 ES-335TD that I bought in 2016 that could have been 1966 or 1969 based on the Blue Book 11th Edition. My pot codes were obscured with either solder or oxidation so I could not get a read with an inspection mirror. So I tied a string to the shaft of the pot closest to the f-hole, removed the nut and pulled it out through the f-hole. I cleaned the oxidation off with a Scotchbrite pad and the date code was late 1968, making it a '69 and not a '66. I then put the pot back in the f-hole and pulled the string to guide the shaft back into the hole.

Early 1970 production did not have volutes and still had the orange sticker in the upper f-hole. Later in the year volutes and the purple and white stickers showed up. I was leaning toward 1970 until I looked at the headstock on my '69. The Gibson logo has no dot above the "i". I also used to have different model Gibson that was a 1966 and the headstock logo does have a dotted "i". So now I'm leaning back to 1968. The pot codes will yield the definitive answer.