Larsongs Posted January 13 Author Share Posted January 13 I see onYoutube there are quite a few Classical Guitars made of Oak… I wonder why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 On 12/17/2023 at 9:51 AM, 62burst said: It wasn't the crack- it was an ad campaign that Gibson had in the early 2000's. I had a J-45 R from that series. Good luck with the real crack. Where it says, Create your own work of Art, it implies Masterbilts are Custom Shop built if I’m reading that right…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Larsongs said: Where it says, Create your own work of Art, it implies Masterbilts are Custom Shop built if I’m reading that right…. I used to work in the advertising world, so I have some experience here. This is an age old move. Adopt a good sounding buzz word, in this case “Masterbuilt,” to support the claim your product is different from the others. In the time leading up to 2000 remember Gibson had gone through some really rough patches and changes in ownership, and they were pulling themselves out, so they needed a new hook to convince people ‘Only a Gibson is Good Enough’ (again). After describing in rather vague hype how special Gibsons are, using words like “luthier,” “climate” and “Master Craftsman,” the last paragraph of the main copy says …*Each* Gibson acoustic is still ‘Masterbuilt’. This is just assuring the customer that any Gibson acoustic you buy will be made with the same care by their special elves in the magical land of Bozeman, just as their guitars of the olden days. This is not distinguishing one line of guitars from another. It is only saying, “we are the greatest.” The inset is just taking it one step further, and flogging the idea of a custom shop saying you could *even* special order a dream guitar and it would be created with the same the Masterbuilt elf commitment to quality *just for you* (because you are unique and special.) However, HERE is the real crux of the confusion: Spelling matters! All Gibson acoustics are “MasterBUILT.” A claim of pride. Epiphones are “MasterBILT.” That is a bit of slick branding sleight of hand, to play on, yet distinguish the mass produced Epiphone line from the Gibson line. Edited January 21 by PrairieDog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 So if using that twist of a word to draw a customer in, would that be considered MasterBait? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 According to what they state in that Ad is they called them Masterbilt but it appears they were built in the Bozeman Custom Shop by their Master Craftsmen… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Larsongs said: According to what they state in that Ad is they called them Masterbilt but it appears they were built in the Bozeman Custom Shop by their Master Craftsmen… This ad is not referencing Masterbilt guitars. No where in the ad do they use the spelling “BILT.” MasterBILT is a made up brand name. The whole marketing/ad campaign was terribly successful, since they tied together the idea of high craftsmanship for “all” their guitars, and that they have a custom shop. Then they spun off that mystique, but not the build, to their new Masterbilt line which shortly became their epiphone line. When they created a more economical/mass produced line, they included the MasterBILT label to give folks the caché they were getting a special instrument, which was carried into the newly launched budget *epiphone* line. The customer’s brain sees the idea, not the twist of spelling, and so associates the guitar with the supposed high individual craftsmanship of the main Gibson line. Further, since it is “a special” they make the jump to some association with the Custom Shop. But they are not equivalent. Here’s the logic tree: All “Gibson” branded guitars are “masterbuilt.” (Note the I’m using the lowercase m in the sense of the ad). Masterbilt/epiphone is a separate budget line started in Bozeman that moved to China. Epiphones are made by the Gibson brand family but not by their “master-builders.” Some epiphones are labeled MasterBILTs. Masterbilt is now the epiphone label that denotes a “special” release of the epiphone version of a limited/special Gibson build, but still at a lower price point, achieved through adjustments to manufacture and materials to keep the cost down. Maybe less detailing, or plastic vs abalone, or maybe abalone bling, but lower graded common woods vs premium rare planks, more automated vs hand work, etc. Masterbilt is evoking for epiphone what the Custom Shop label does for Gibson. But they are not synonymous. In your case, the Gibson version of your guitar was the custom shop Elvis J145 with the higher cost. Now, some Masterbilts come close to the price of regular Gibsons, which raises the question why folks would choose a “special knock-off” when they could have a “real” regular Gibson. Folks were conditioned to think if the cost was close enough they surely must be getting the same quality instrument: Ka-ching for epiphone (and the Gibson family). Cheaper to produce guitars sold at a premium price. And many would argue if the distinctions even mean anything at all. As you say, you have a great Masterbilt J145. In the end, it’s all perfectly brilliant marketing. Edited January 21 by PrairieDog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Epiphone was using the name Masterbilt in the 1930s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Just now, ksdaddy said: Epiphone was using the name Masterbilt in the 1930s. Of course, You are right. But the company was sold to Gibson in 1957, where it stayed after moving to Japan. I should have wrote as Gibson repositioned epiphone in their holdings they maintained the Masterbilt tag to denote up market epiphone models. Regardless, anything labeled Masterbilt is not going to be the same as a Gibson custom shop build, and nothing seems to indicate it was, other than the conflation of masterbuild with Masterbilt. I just think a leap is being made that because it was built in Bozeman, and was marketed as a Masterbilt, it should be the same construction as the Elvis CS being produced at the same time. It would not make sense to undercut the Custom Shop version by selling the same guitar at a cheaper price under a different name? I certainly could stand to be corrected. I have no ego here, and as I said, Lars has a great instrument either way. Obviously epi isn’t make trash. This just all started with a discussion of why his may have cracked after all these years. I was just proposing it may have had to do with the different grade wood used in the Masterbilt/epiphone line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I refuse to believe that Larsong's guitar cracked because it had inferior wood. Or any defect in workmanship. Wood cracks, windshields crack (two in our 2021 Bronco this year!) and concrete cracks. Likewise I refuse to believe that a 60 year old crack free guitar necessarily has anything superior in material. It happens. It happened. Or it won't. I don't care whether it came from an assembly line in Dink Chow, Southeast China or from under Bob Benedetto's pillow. If it wants to crack, it will, either brand new in a 47.5% humidity hermetically sealed room or 20 years later as it's leaning up against the wood stove. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 4 minutes ago, ksdaddy said: I refuse to believe that Larsong's guitar cracked because it had inferior wood. Or any defect in workmanship. Wood cracks, windshields crack (two in our 2021 Bronco this year!) and concrete cracks. Likewise I refuse to believe that a 60 year old crack free guitar necessarily has anything superior in material. It happens. It happened. Or it won't. I don't care whether it came from an assembly line in Dink Chow, Southeast China or from under Bob Benedetto's pillow. If it wants to crack, it will, either brand new in a 47.5% humidity hermetically sealed room or 20 years later as it's leaning up against the wood stove. Well, physics might disagree with you just a bit. “Something” caused the wood give way. It wasn’t fairy dust or the devil, chuckle. I agreed way back that it would likely always be a mystery, but it is also a fact there are characteristics that can contribute to a piece of wood being more prone to cracking or not, assuming no other outside force. And flaws, even where the plank came from in the tree, is a very common factor. Anybody who’s built a deck knows it pays to get the clearest, tightest grain boards possible, no matter what species you choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 58 minutes ago, PrairieDog said: Of course, You are right. But the company was sold to Gibson in 1957, where it stayed after moving to Japan. I should have wrote as Gibson repositioned epiphone in their holdings they maintained the Masterbilt tag to denote up market epiphone models. Regardless, anything labeled Masterbilt is not going to be the same as a Gibson custom shop build, and nothing seems to indicate it was, other than the conflation of masterbuild with Masterbilt. I just think a leap is being made that because it was built in Bozeman, and was marketed as a Masterbilt, it should be the same construction as the Elvis CS being produced at the same time. It would not make sense to undercut the Custom Shop version by selling the same guitar at a cheaper price under a different name? I certainly could stand to be corrected. I have no ego here, and as I said, Lars has a great instrument either way. Obviously epi isn’t make trash. This just all started with a discussion of why his may have cracked after all these years. I was just proposing it may have had to do with the different grade wood used in the Masterbilt/epiphone line. I'll check my File.. It may not say Masterbilt.. It may say Master Built.. As it was built in the Gibson Bozeman Factory... If I remember it was a Ltd Edition model. Also, It's a Solid Top J-160E... The Split may or may not be a Warranty issue.. That remains to be seen.. I have had to send Guitar's to Gibson for Warranty Repair in the past.. I tell them what I think.. They tell me what they think.. And we go from there.. They have always treated me right.. I would hope they still will.. It appears that Gluing & using Cleats is the most common way to fix these types of Cracks.. If that's what they recommend that's what we'll do.. I will also ask them to do a thorough inspection inside & out & take care of anything it needs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 minutes ago, Larsongs said: I'll check my File.. It may not say Masterbilt.. It may say Master Built.. As it was built in the Gibson Bozeman Factory... If I remember it was a Ltd Edition model. Also, It's a Solid Top J-160E... The Split may or may not be a Warranty issue.. That remains to be seen.. I have had to send Guitar's to Gibson for Warranty Repair in the past.. I tell them what I think.. They tell me what they think.. And we go from there.. They have always treated me right.. I would hope they still will.. It appears that Gluing & using Cleats is the most common way to fix these types of Cracks.. If that's what they recommend that's what we'll do.. I will also ask them to do a thorough inspection inside & out & take care of anything it needs... That it is not a “bilt” probably makes more sense, and perhaps just the regular Gibson run of the Elvis. I couldn’t find a standard version of it in the catalog for that year, but now that you say “limited” that might explain it. MIght have been a limited run for a specific shop. I wish Gibson would have just stuck to one criteria for “regular” and “specials.” Chuckle. My DIF is a “limited” just because it has a special color burst ordered by a retailer out in Hollywood. Otherwise, it’s a normal DIF. I really hope it gets worked out for you. Maybe I should delete my comments about the ad campaign if they aren’t relevant, they are just confusing the issue, and neither here nor there. Sorta clutters up the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 (edited) 6 minutes ago, PrairieDog said: That it is not a “bilt” probably makes more sense, and perhaps just the regular Gibson run of the Elvis. I couldn’t find a standard version of it in the catalog for that year, but now that you say “limited” that might explain it. MIght have been a limited run for a specific shop. I wish Gibson would have just stuck to one criteria for “regular” and “specials.” Chuckle. My DIF is a “limited” just because it has a special color burst ordered by a retailer out in Hollywood. Otherwise, it’s a normal DIF. I really hope it gets worked out for you. Maybe I should delete my comments about the ad campaign if they aren’t relevant, they are just confusing the issue, and neither here nor there. Sorta clutters up the discussion. I think your comments helped get me to where I am.. And I appreciate them.. It doesn't hurt me to get more knowledge.. I do try to research & make the best decisions.. Still, it always seems there's always more.... Edited January 21 by Larsongs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 25 Author Share Posted January 25 I got confirmation to send it to Gibson & an RMA for Shipping.. I live in Palm Springs, Ca. & it’s late January. Bozeman is in the middle of a very cold Winter. I’m wondering if sending it right now might create more issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 The processing centers are heated for employees. The trucks are heated. It's not like they're gonna leave it on the porch at Bozeman. I'd get this show on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 25 Author Share Posted January 25 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Murph said: The processing centers are heated for employees. The trucks are heated. It's not like they're gonna leave it on the porch at Bozeman. I'd get this show on the road. Don’t they use Planes for part of the Shipping to Bozeman? Maybe not since it’s much closer than Nashville. I guess I should Call them & ask… Edited January 25 by Larsongs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 Good thing you aren't touring. rct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 1 hour ago, Murph said: The processing centers are heated for employees. The trucks are heated. It's not like they're gonna leave it on the porch at Bozeman. I'd get this show on the road. Actually, most delivery trucks are not heated at all. for the long haul they are in a semi-trailer, then parked at the facility until it gets unloaded, and the final miles are either not conditioned or barely. My cans of frozen pet food from Chewy is proof. Part of what the UPS strike was about. Those poor schmucks drive around in below zero weather with open cabs and the equivalent of a sterno candle for a heater, nothing gets into the back, and no AC in the summer when it is 100. My guy deserves every envelope I slip him at the holidays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 25 Author Share Posted January 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, rct said: Good thing you aren't touring. rct I’m good, I’ve got other Guitars.. Just got back from playing out of town actually.. Not too far.. Newport Beach is only a couple hours from Palm Springs…. I had a great time playing with my other Band, “The Fab-Tones”…. We’ve got plenty of Songs & we’re ready to go… Edited January 25 by Larsongs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 Yesterday was Sunny & apox 70 degrees here in Palm Springs. Ca. It was Cold & Snowing in Nashville.. I called Gibson & asked if it was a good idea to send my J-160E with the Split to them right now.. Their Service Rep said, it probably isn't a good idea.. He said, to keep the RMA they gave me & call them when I'm ready to send it.. So, as much as I want to get this done I'm going to wait til Spring.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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