Larsongs Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Recently my babied 21 yr old Bozeman Masterbilt J-160E developed a split on the Top side about 5-6” long.. In my same Home Studio room is not babied my 48 year old Martin D-35… My room temp ranges from aprox 65 to 78 degrees year round. I keep a Humidifier set at 60%.. Living in the dry Desert area of Palm Springs, Ca. to get 50% humidity in my Room I need to set Humidifier at 60% to compensate for our dry climate… Amyhow I became curious why my Spruce Mahogany Guitar split & my Spruce Rosewood didn’t. I’m the only guy that plays them. I play the same music in the same environment? I got curious about the Wood… Here’s a Video I came across that I thought I’d share.. Feel free to post others & comment… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I like walnut. And rosewood. And ebony. I was a lumberjack for many years, so would never be mistaken for a tree hugger. I own thousands of honey locust, birch, sycamore and oak trees. I've been married twice. That's all I got... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I built a mandolin with a cedar top and black ash sides n back. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 I didn’t know about Janka Hardness of woods.. I see why my 21 yr old J-160E may have split & my 48 yr old D-35 didn’t…. I gained new insight about Acoustic Guitars & building Guitars I never gave much thought too… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 10 hours ago, ksdaddy said: I built a mandolin with a cedar top and black ash sides n back. That's damned nice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 4 hours ago, Larsongs said: I didn’t know about Janka Hardness of woods.. I see why my 21 yr old J-160E may have split & my 48 yr old D-35 didn’t…. I gained new insight about Acoustic Guitars & building Guitars I never gave much thought too… I wouldn't fret over it. I still honestly think it's just the luck of the draw. My J-45 has gigged in all kinds of weather and hundreds of thousands of others have too. Wood is weird and magic, stronger than steel in some applications, and yet subject to rot, rust, insects and fire. Hoping it works out well for you, my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 The engineers in my agency have a saying: There are two types of concrete. Concrete that has cracked, and concrete that hasn’t cracked yet. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 I spent sometime researching different characteristics of wood 15 years back when we were having our carpet replaced with wood. Chose cherry, which is pretty hard and affordable. Caused me to start looking at tone woods from the perspective of 'wood experts', not just guitar wood experts. ... sort of a rabbit hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) Of course you know “Masterbilt” is the still the high end of the cost-efficient Epiphone brand. So all bets are off on the quality of woods used. Not every piece of wood even among the same tree is equal. The tiny flaws and such that made a piece not meet regular Gibson standards, but still good enough to build with, makes them more prone to cracks and such as they age. It’s not really a fair comparison with your high end Martin. Yes, a few were built in Bozeman, and epiphones can be lovely instruments, but to meet the price point, even if they were made in the same factory, they were not using the same quality materials as the flagship brand/custom shop models. But like everybody says, cracks are really not a big deal, and easily repaired. Edited January 17 by PrairieDog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J185cat Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 He seems to concentrate on hardness of the woods as being the primary determining factor in tone. I’m sue that has a lot to do with it but I suspect there are a lot more elements involved also. I’m sure some on the board who know more about this can comment. There are factors such as dampening perhaps or wood grain growth. Heck, two pieces of the same species sound different. I certainly do respect the efforts to not exploit the resources involved with the traditional woods, human and trees both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 15 hours ago, ksdaddy said: I built a mandolin with a cedar top and black ash sides n back. Yowza!! Lovely instrument. Edited January 17 by PrairieDog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 50 minutes ago, PrairieDog said: Of course you know “Masterbilt” is the still the high end of the cost-efficient Epiphone brand. So all bets are off on the quality of woods used. Not every piece of wood even among the same tree is equal. The tiny flaws and such that made a piece not meet regular Gibson standards, but still good enough to build with, makes them more prone to cracks and such as they age. It’s not really a fair comparison with your high end Martin. Yes, a few were built in Bozeman, and epiphones can be lovely instruments, but to meet the price point, even if they were made in the same factory, they were not using the same quality materials as the flagship brand/custom shop models. But like everybody says, cracks are really not a big deal, and easily repaired. I do know my Guitar is not a USA Bozeman Epiphone Masterbilt & that in 2001 they were promoted as the Gibson Bozeman Masterbilt J-160E. Somewhere here on this forum there is the Gibson Advertisement… I’m not an expert on Woods. But, it seems harder wood is stronger & less likely to crack… I’m not going to fret over it. I want to identify the problem, understand what caused it, how to deal with it & get it repaired by Gibson.. At this point I contend it should be a Warranty Repair.. But, we’ll see.. I love the Guitar & have no interest in parting with it. It is the best Slope Shoulder Gibson I’ve ever played.. I don’t think I’ll ever build an Acoustic Guitar.. I wish I could though.. I do want to build a Solid body Electric & Wood will be an important factor.. I’m just trying to get a little more knowledge…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, Larsongs said: I’m not an expert on Woods. But, it seems harder wood is stronger & less likely to crack… But if it says Masterbilt, that is an early release from what they would rebrand as their epiphone line in 2004. Yours was built by that side of the factory before the move to China, that’s all. It distinguishes it from the main Gibson brand. Gibson made a custom shop Lennon J165e and a Masterbilt 165e. They are similar but not the same exact builds. The Masterbilt was made efficiently with more economical woods to serve the folks who wanted the j165e but not at the Custom shop price. Not saying you don’t have a great guitar, you obviously do, but it is still not the fully appointed Gibson Custom shop version. If it were it would *be* a custom shop, right? There would be no point in having both names. The strength and resistance to cracking is not just about which wood, but entirely dependent on the clarity of the planks and even what part of the trunk they came from. Planks from the base of the tree that bore the entire weight of the tree are going to be stronger/denser than the planks cut from the top of the trunk, Those may have more flex from effects of wind. Picking Instrument woods is a fine science and very “goldilocks”, and contributes to the high costs on the upper end builds. Only a few planks from a tree will meet the exact standards a builder wants for a high end guitar. The expensive builds make their reputation on knowing exactly where in the tree they want their planks from, the size of the grain, and the clarity of the pieces, to make sure their instruments will have the most resistance to deforming and will perform properly for decades. That’s your Martin. But plenty of other wood from the same tree will make perfectly good, standard instruments, they may just have characteristics that could have more effect on tone, crack, deflection, and checking resistance over time. Yeah, Gibson could probably fix it. But with their normal warranty only against manufacturing defects, it will be hard to prove there was no user error in over 20 years that may have contributed, despite you knowing better. Anyone can say “I baby my guitars.” The issue will be proving you did. It’s a fact of life guitars can crack, all kinds of wood cracks. It’s a mystery why yours did, but it’s going to be hard to lay it on a manufacturer defect after 20 years. With standard mill-run wood, a maker can’t how a guitar will handle decades of minute movements and breathing, players and playing conditions, even the state of being fully opened up. Any manufacturing wood defect (like a tiny knot or preexisting crack that simply widened) would have manifested in the first few years as it stabilized. Seriously, like the others have said, it will probably cost more in time, money, hassle, and even danger, to ship it back to Montana than to have your local luthier zip it up. And you’ll have it back home safe and sound sooner. If it were me, I’d be bummed, but I wouldn’t stress about it. It’s kinda like sometimes a 20 year old Chevy will need a new radiator no matter how many Sundays it was driven to church by grandma. Edited January 17 by PrairieDog 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 I don’t go along with “harder is better”. Yeah, yeah, I know what I said. Sycamore is softer than most maple but the early Bozeman J200s (in Sycamore aka European Maple) are considered by many to be totally superior to the ones made of Eastern Maple (which is harder). I was speaking with a couple engineers at work about 20 years ago, talking about making saddles from various materials, and they started talking about Young’s Modulus of Elasticity and soon my eyes glazed over. I made a few saddles with various materials and found that while harder materials (I.e. brass or steel) might be more efficient in their transfer of vibrations, it doesn’t mean it’s going to be better. The other end of the spectrum is true too, too soft and things get lost. Think of some Gibsons that had adjustable rosewood saddles. Not saying they were BAD, but once people switched to bone, not many went back. I’d be interested to hear what Gibson has to say about the side crack. I am not taking sides but I just can’t see any company repairing a crack in the side of a 20 year old guitar and calling it a warranty repair. It would be setting a dangerous precedent. If they do fix it for you, great! Happy for ya! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 (edited) I liked the You Tube Video.. It was informative & gave me insight into parts of Acoustic Guitar Construction I haven’t given enough thought to. I agree hardness doesn’t necessarily equate better Sound.. Which is why Martin & others choose Spruce for Tops & Rosewood for Sides & Backs.. To balance & compliment the overall Sound.. Or other Woods for Tops & even more types of Woods for Tops & Sides all in hopes in getting it right. Strength, Tone, Volume, Balance.. Getting it right.There are many other combinations of choices as well. I think hardness refers to strength.. Not necessarily Sound… Everything is negotiable….. Edited January 18 by Larsongs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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