Chapter 11

[Homz]

 

I was being respectful and this is what I get in return. Its not me who needs to wake up; the people who own these factories have no alliance to any American worker so the additional funds I am talking abut is the average pay of 75 per hour for the union auto worker. Before you get stupid again like the last time I quoted this' date=' this include your benefits, salary and all those other nice things your enjoying right now. To bad respect wasn't a two way road. Without a company you have no job. Its because of Unions, and the greedy top layer that we are in this shape. Unions do not provide that level of comfort that you dream about. Wake up before your position is gone just like your friends, but before you fire another disrespectful thread be happy and blessed its you working. We see how that company and your UNION has treated you and allowed for job security. As for my job I work for myself, no problems.[/quote']

 

First off I was only addressing you in my first paragraph. The rest was general commentary to all the inflammatory posts. I should have made that more clear.

 

As for your $75 / hour rate. That is hog wash. That number is not only my benefits, and pay it also represents all those that have retired and their surviving spouses. The retirees double the hourly rate. It is a number dreamed up by those that want to make us look bad. It's also important to point out the transplant auto plants don't have the legacy costs the American plants do. My pay and benefits is about $45 / hour. That is only a few dollars more then the transplant workers. And that rate is before the new contract that went into effect two days ago. That number will drop dramatically.

 

Now onto the general Union bashing. And this question goes to any who think the unions should go away. Please tell me how the destruction of organized labor will make your lives better. I really want to know.

[RichCI]

IF the additional costs of which you refer is that of pensions then how is that different from any other industry that offers pensions. There is no additional costs when compared to the transplant auto plants. In fact our actual income was less then 2 dollars per hour more then the Toyota plants in the U.S.. And with the new contract that went into affect two days ago our average income will be less then them. A lot less.

 

The unions are a safety mechanism against the very nature of business. That very basic premise is to exploit the worker. It is being done all over every country in the world. With our without laws that protect the workers. The unions insure the rules are followed. If any of you think that doing away with unions is going to help you in some way then you are making a big mistake. After the unions fall all industries who worked as non-union shops will no longer feel the threat to unionize and will cut wages and will take advantage in what ever ways they can. Yeah' date=' as many of you say you could just get another job. When this wide spread effect takes place there will be no jobs that are not effected.

 

Simply put. Many people in many countries have died for the rights that we now have. They have died to unionize in Poland, all over Europe, and here in the USA. I would gladly fight for those rights. I would literally die for the rights that the unions of the world have stood for. I would lay my life down to protect the American worker, and by extension protect the future of my children. And yes your children. Even though you don't respect that you may some day be thankful there are people like me who would and some day shall.[/quote']

 

 

Pension? How many companies even pay out pensions these days? I've never had a job where there was a pension.

 

I work for a retirement plan recordkeeper and there is a company 401(k) plan where the employees contribute to their own retirement and control how their money is invested. Now THAT is power for the employee, not relying on someone else to save for them and deciding how to invest the money.

 

There was a time when unions were very much needed and really did protect workers but, today, they seem to be more about strong arming companies and bleeding them to death.

[munch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYscnFpEyA&feature=channel_page

 

sent my teabag in to my "representative," senators, and the president. hope the fbi doesnt knock down my door. look yours up:

 

http://www.house.gov/

http://www.senate.gov/

 

oh and by the way, unions, in most cases, are a legalized racket. the pensions of most unions are grossly underfunded. in the future, when they cannot be paid out, the government will take them over which leaves all of us citizens, union or not, paying your bill through our taxes.

Unions are there to get their money from their membership. period. so the officials can line their pockets. The funny thing is, when theyre not harrassing non-union companies (youve seen these lazy a$$holes picketing in lawn chairs under umbrellas around town) they're infighting among themselves about who should get which kinds of jobs. its laughable!

 

http://www.nlpc.org/statindx.asp#mo union corruption: index by state.

http://www.unionfacts.com/ center for union facts.

http://lrionline.com/Products/InterviewOrg.html interview with a former union "organizer."

[KSG_Standard]

...As for your $75 / hour rate. That is hog wash. That number is not only my benefits' date=' and pay it also represents all those that have retired and their surviving spouses. The retirees double the hourly rate. It is a number dreamed up by those that want to make us look bad...[/quote']

 

BULLSH!T!!!! Your UAW and several reputable news sources disagree with you! Good try Spoonz!

 

I've posted the FACTS on multiple occasions, but since you don't/can't read you keep spreading your BS...Brilliant!!!!! =D> =D>

[Homz]

 

BULLSH!T!!!! Your UAW and several reputable news sources disagree with you! Good try Spoonz!

 

I've posted the FACTS on multiple occasions' date=' but since you don't/can't read you keep spreading your BS...Brilliant!!!!! =D> =D> [/quote']

 

You are full of it. The number is actually $72/hour and it is the sum of all wages benefits of all workers and retirees / surviving spouses and divided by the hours worked of only those that are working. This standard will change daily because of the number of people who are laid off. I would bet for example since the entire company is currently laid off that that number is enormous at the moment. Probably in the $100/hour range, being that only about 1/1000 of the work force is working.

 

Why don't you talk about something of which you know a bit about.

[KSG_Standard]

UAW Workers Actually Cost the Big Three Automakers $70 an Hour

by James Sherk

WebMemo #2162

 

The United Auto Workers (UAW) wants Congress to bail out General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler to prevent their undergoing restructuring in bankruptcy proceedings. In bankruptcy, a judge could order union contracts to be renegotiated to reflect competitive realities. Many analysts have objected that hourly autoworkers at the Big Three are some of the most highly paid workers in America, costing the Big Three over $70 an hour in wages and current and future benefits. All taxpayers should not be taxed to preserve the affluence of a few.

 

Some observers argue that UAW members do not actually earn this much.[1] They argue this figure includes the cost of benefits paid to current retirees as well as wages and benefits paid to current workers and that the actual hourly earnings of current UAW members are much lower. This is a mistaken interpretation of the financial data released by the Detroit automakers.

 

Cash Compensation

 

Chart 1 shows the average hourly compensation for UAW workers and the average compensation for all private sector workers. These figures are based upon calculations by the Detroit automakers themselves as published in SEC filings, their annual reports, and other materials. According to briefing materials prepared by General Motors, "The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked."

 

UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December 2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.[2]

 

Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example, workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.[3]

 

Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68 an hour in 2006.[4] About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

 

Earned Benefits

 

The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46 percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits include[5]:

 

* Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;

* Dental and vision benefits;

* Group life insurance;

* Disability benefits;

* Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);

* Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;

* Unemployment compensation; and

* Payroll taxes (employer's share).

 

These benefits cost the Detroit automakers significant amounts of money. Critics contend that these benefit figures include the cost of providing retirement and health benefits to currently retired workers, not just benefits for current workers. Since there are more retired than active employees this makes it appear that GM employees earn far more than they actually do.

 

This contention contradicts the plain meaning of what the automakers have reported in SEC filings and in their public statements and would be contrary to generally accepted accounting principles.

 

Under the accounting rules established by the Financial Accounting Standards Board, the Detroit automakers must report their liability for future benefits as they accrue.[6] The hourly benefits figure includes payments into defined benefit pension plans to provide future pensions to current workers. It also includes the estimated costs of future retirement health benefits that current workers earn today.

 

Chrysler, for example, reports paying $20.14 an hour in health costs for its hourly employees. That figure includes the estimated cost of their health benefits in retirement, calculated according to Financial Accounting Standard 106.[7] The government does not allow Chrysler to promise to pay tens of thousands of dollars in health benefits in the future without reporting that cost on its balance sheets today.

 

Excludes Legacy Costs

 

The hourly benefit figures the Detroit automakers report covers the cost of current and future benefits earned by actively working employees. It does not include the cost of paying health benefits and pensions to current retirees.

 

Before they requested a bailout, the Big Three automakers specifically explained that their labor cost figures do not include the cost of past work. General Motors states in its filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission that:

GM maintains hourly and salaried benefit plans that provide postretirement medical, dental, vision, and life insurance to most U.S. and Canadian retirees and eligible dependents. The cost of such benefits is recognized in the consolidated financial statements during the period employees provide service to GM.[8]

 

In other words, GM records the expense for retiree benefits when workers earn the benefits, not years later when they collect their benefits. In less technical language, Ford explains that their total average hourly labor costs include:

 

(1) All the dollars paid to employees, (2) the cost of contractual benefits for employees, and (3) the cost of statutory payments, such as Social Security and Workers' Compensation--all calculated on the basis of hours worked by employees.[9]

 

Average hourly costs include the costs of wages and benefits (current and future) to employees divided by the number of hours worked by those same employees. It does not include the benefits paid to retirees.[10] This is in accord with standard accounting principles that require the Big Three to report their costs as they occur. Labor costs are the costs to the Detroit automakers of employing its current workers, not paying former workers for services performed decades ago.

 

Retirement Benefits Alone Cost $31 an Hour

 

The argument that retiree pension and health benefits inflate the hourly labor costs of the Detroit automakers cannot withstand basic scrutiny. For instance, General Motors UAW retirement plan paid $4.9 billion to 291,000 retirees and surviving spouses in 2006.[11] That works out to $31.04 an hour when apportioned among active workers.[12] That figure accounts for virtually all GM's benefit costs--before accounting for health care costs, disability benefits, supplemental unemployment benefits, or any of the other benefits GM provides. GM pays too much in retirement benefits to have labor costs of only $70 an hour if that figure included benefits to current retirees.

 

Labor Costs Similar Despite Retiree Differences

 

The Detroit automakers pay similar wages at each company despite having very different numbers of retirees to provide for. Table 1 shows the average hourly labor costs for the Big Three and the ratio of retirees to active workers at each company. General Motors has far more retirees per active worker than Ford or Chrysler. For each active worker at GM, there were 3.8 retirees or dependants in 2006. At Chrysler this ratio was half as much: two retirees for each worker. At Ford there were only 1.6 retirees per worker. If the hourly labor costs included retiree benefits, hourly wages at GM would be much higher than at either Ford or Chrysler.

 

But this is not the case. General Motors did not have the highest hourly labor costs despite having more retirees. Chrysler paid $2.60 an hour more in labor costs in 2006 than GM did. Ford paid only $2.75 an hour less than GM did, despite having half as many retirees relative to workers to provide for. All three automakers had roughly the same hourly labor costs despite having very different numbers of retirees to provide for. Hourly labor costs account for the expense of providing wages and benefits to current workers but do not include legacy costs.

 

Taxing the Many to Pay the Few

 

UAW spokespeople have roundly condemned the estimate of labor costs in excess of $70 per current worker hour. They assert these figures include the cost of current retiree pension and health benefits. They have done so, however, without marshalling evidence to support their case.

 

The Detroit automakers explain in their SEC filings that their benefit expenses are for current workers, not former employees. This is because they follow generally accepted accounting principles in preparing these estimates. If the figures did include current retiree benefits, the average hourly amount would be much higher than they actually report. UAW employees earn far more than most Americans do. Congress should not tax all Americans to bailout the Detroit automakers in order to preserve high earnings for a few.

 

http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2162.cfm

[Homz]

Find another source you POS.

The Heritage Foundation is a right wing propaganda machine.

 

I know full well what I make per/hour.

[KSG_Standard]

So do we! We own your company...remember?

 

Cash Compensation

 

Chart 1 shows the average hourly compensation for UAW workers and the average compensation for all private sector workers. These figures are based upon calculations by the De****t automakers themselves as published in SEC filings, their annual reports, and other materials. According to briefing materials prepared by General Motors, "The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked."

 

UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December 2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.[2]

 

Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example, workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.[3]

 

Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68 an hour in 2006.[4] About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

 

Earned Benefits

 

The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46 percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits include[5]:

 

* Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;

* Dental and vision benefits;

* Group life insurance;

* Disability benefits;

* Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);

* Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;

* Unemployment compensation; and

* Payroll taxes (employer's share).

[Homz]

You just posted the same thing with out quoting the source.

[KSG_Standard]

You just posted the same thing with out quoting the source.

 

Yeah...I'm a bitter little plagiarist! =D>

[NeoConMan]

It's your big chance. Kill the unions.

I've worked on both sides' date=' most unions suck for many reasons.

I can make a lucid argument against them simply using most of the points you push.

You guys are your own worst enemy.

 

 

 

 

When they are out on the streets' date=' I'd watch your backs.[/quote']I do every day. Nothing new there.

 

 

They are largely gun owners and they will be hungry.

Then maybe they should get ANOTHER job. Your goose finally has no more golden eggs in it and you think it's MY responsibility to care for you? Move in with your mother.

 

 

Their children will be hungry.

Give them up for adoption if no family members can help you out.

Your family is YOUR responsibility' date=' if you haven't figured that one out yet then you have a lot to learn.

 

 

They will probably first go after the owners of foreign cars.

Yeah, that's it. Commit property crimes, that'll show everybody how smart you are - and worthy of sympathy.

Go to jail for vandalism, then try to get a job with a criminal record.

WAL MART won't even hire you then, ironic as that may seem....

Big time union guy, can't even get a job pushung carts in the parking lot of that Beacon Of Free Enterprise.

:-)

 

 

Just think millions of hungry gun wielding crazies bent on the destruction of all that they see as the cause of their problems.

Bring it on. Reality is a m@therfxcker Homz....

 

 

Funny' date=' reminds me of another group of crazies. [/quote'] Fxxx off' date=' D!ck Head.

 

 

It would probably be easier to simply keep them working.

Never heard YOU volunteer to pay MY wages.

Why should I give you a penny?

As others have stated, I have actually packed up my sh!t and hit the road more than once.

 

Ya know what?

I've gotten jobs when nobody was hiring.

I worked for a LOT less than I should have until I found something better - I had no "protection" keeping me there.

 

 

The unions are a safety mechanism against the very nature of business.

The very nature of business is to make money' date=' so, yes, you are correct.

Unions are ALWAYS against ANYBODY making money.

Well, anybody except their fellow members in the International Motherhood of Brotherfxckers.

 

 

That very basic premise is to exploit the worker.

They need employees to run their business and make a profit, so they hire. You can't do the job, they fire you.

Why do you still insist on pushing the fallacy that the sole reason any business is created is to hire you and your thugs?

They are in business to make money, everything else is secondary.

 

 

It is being done all over every country in the world.

Ah' date=' yes.... The rest of the world is INDEED what we should be worried about now, isn't it?

Wait, I thought all you Obama-loving, Defeatocrat-voting, One World Order types were in love with Europe....

Now we should fear what has happened to them as on omen for us?

You're right! I agree!!!!

 

 

With our without laws that protect the workers.

What does a union have to do with laws? NOTHING.

Courts and litigation, sure. OSHA, EPA, etc....

Would it surprise you to know that I work in a nuclear power plant with non-union operators?

NUCLEAR POWER.

Compare that to the same fine people who brought us the K Car.

 

Zion, a nuke plant in northern Illinois was closed down forever due to union labor less than ten years ago.

 

Reagan fired the PATCO controllers in 1981 and I will ALWAYS believe he should have.

 

Go to work at NeoCon Inc. and start pulling your union bullsh!t.

I'll do more than fire you - I'll see you never work again. Obama can feed you through a tube.

 

 

The unions insure the rules are followed.

Not at my plant. We have LAWS for that - and enforcement.

 

 

If any of you think that doing away with unions is going to help you in some way then you are making a big mistake.

Same mistake I've been making for 25 years?

Check your scorecard' date=' Homz. Find my name and yours - see who's ahead right now.

 

 

After the unions fall all industries who worked as non-union shops will no longer feel the threat to unionize and will cut wages and will take advantage in what ever ways they can.

Then QUIT!

If enough people leave then a company has to pay more to survive.

Remember, they want to make money, eh?

 

 

Yeah' date=' as many of you say you could just get another job.[/quote']If it's not easy, then you can't do it.

Is THAT what you're trying to say?

That's what I'm hearing.....

 

 

When this wide spread effect takes place there will be no jobs that are not effected.

I'll cope, trust me.

If I get promoted and make tons of money, I'll be sending even more into the Obama Abyss thru taxation.

Don't think for a second I'm not feeling YOUR pain.

 

Great job on all the sh!t-stirring threads, you sure came back swinging for the fences - now if you could just hit the ball.