Liberal vs. Conservative

[hans]

What do you propose for MY country from your Socialist perch across the pond that is "better" than capitalism?

 

To live in your country would require a substantial "adjustment" to my freedoms' date=' income, earning power and liberty.

 

No thanks.

 

(I turned down a lucrative job offer in Belgium in 1994....)

 

 

 

 

 

My, how witty and thought-provoking......

 

[/quote']

 

I am not proposing anything "better". I was just wondering about the thread starters categorization into 'liberal' and 'conservative' as were these two political categories the only ones. In my opinion the political realm is slightly broader than that. And talking about "adjustment" to ones freedoms; I have actually travelled your great country for three months and I didn't experience any increase in my freedoms - quite on the contrary. Do you have any first hand travelling experiences from my country, mr. NeoConMan?

[milod]

Well....

 

Never been to Denmark. German, France, etc., yeah...

 

I feel a lot more free here - just not in urban areas. But then, to me all of Europe is functionally urban.

 

That, I think, is the big difference.

 

I'd have to add that my own economic wellbeing has always worsened in U.S. Democrat admnistrations. Why? Because places I've worked have been taken into conglomerates and those corporations require "X" amount of revenue per stock share. Increase taxes and/or regulation and that cuts into the stock dividends which then brings "expense cutting" which ends up meaning lower paychecks and/or job cuts.

 

That's true elsewhere, obviously.

 

It wasn't so much of a problem when you had "car people" running car companies, bank people running banks, publishing people running publications and such. However, when it was "corporate people" running all the above and obviously many others, you then have lessening of product, loss of jobs and very likely the jobs going offshore.

 

That's already happened. It's the stock market and corporate gamesmanship, not cash flow, that seems to determine stuff.

 

The problem also with the US is, as one European friend once noted, is that we're not a country, we're functionally a continent with nearly as many cultural and economic differences as found in Europe.

 

That lack of a single general philosophy does make things difficult for the US compared to most European nations. But watch France, the UK, Germany, the Netherlands... As non-European immigrants from elsewhere come in and try to make whichever nation into what they left, problems arise.

 

Sorry, just an observation.

 

I don't ever forget that Clausewitz referred to Germany as a "free country" compared to Napoleonic France. Hmmm. But then, he also joined the Russian Army under the Czar to fight Napoleon.

 

What's "freedom?"

 

I think over the next generation that last question will be one increasingly frequently asked in all "western" nations and - as I once got into trouble stating as a 22-year-old, I think as the US becomes increasingly urbanized in terms of population densities, we'll see here an increasingly European flavor to life here.

[NeoConMan]

Do you have any first hand travelling experiences from my country' date=' mr. NeoConMan?[/quote']

If I come, can I bring my guns? I have a bunch of them, various types and many different calibers.

How about my truck that gets 12 miles per gallon of gas?

Can I get gas for less than $1 per liter?

 

If I earn $100,000 a year, how much of it can I keep for myself?

Can I afford a BIG 3 bedroom house in the country?

Will I have enough left over to save and invest?

 

I'm probably not as familiar with northern Europe as you are with the USA, but all the people I've met and worked with from there gave me little reason to want to make the move beyond simple curiosity.

I may do the tourism thing there someday, I spent a month wandering the UK and the Scottish Highlands in 2000.

 

I've been all over the US and several countries, I already moved to where I wanted to live.

I had the financial and professional freedom to do so.

 

I'll be right here in Arizona for the foreseeable future, thanks.

[KSG_Standard]

hans,

 

Here in the US, we generally include socialists in the liberal category. We tend to think of political views in the following manner:

 

<Communist___Socialist___Democrat_____Moderate___Republican____Libertarian__Fascist>

 

 

My illustration is not intended to be exact or derogatory towards any group, but rather just to show how many of us view the political spectrum.

 

While socialism works for the Danes and many other European countries, and it might work great in Denmark, there are MANY differences between our countries.

 

For example your country has a Constitutional Monarchy and we have a Constitutional Republic. Your country has a population of just over 5.4 million people and your country is much more homogenous in nature than ours. America has over 300 million people and we are not even close to a homogenous society.

 

The Danish welfare model is accompanied by a taxation system that is both broad based (25% VAT, not including excise, duty and tax) and with a progressive income tax model, meaning the more money that is earned, the higher income tax percentage that gets paid (minimum tax rate for adults is 42% scaling to over 60%, except for the residents of Ertholmene that escape the otherwise ubiquitous 8% healthcare tax fraction of the income taxes). Other taxes include the registration tax on private vehicles, at a rate of 180%, on top of VAT. Lately (July, 2007) this has been changed slightly in an attempt to favor more fuel efficient cars but maintaining the average taxation level more or less unchanged. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark

 

Most of Europe, that has a Socialist system of gov't has a higher unemployment rate than America, and the avergage length of unemployment is longer, , and this has been sustained over decades (at least since the 1970s) Most Americans wouldn't accept the same level of unemployment that is the norm in Europe, we are panicking over our current unemployment rate which is still less than 9%. Our unemployment rate has been below 6% for most of the last decade.

 

Denmark is apparently one of the exceptions in Europe and has succeeded with it's system of gov't. I would like to visit your country, but I would not like to live there.

[hans]

Well....

 

Never been to Denmark. German' date=' France, etc., yeah...

 

I feel a lot more free here - just not in urban areas. But then, to me all of Europe is functionally urban.

 

That, I think, is the big difference.

 

[/quote']

 

How can you determine that you feel more free in the US, if you have never been here in Denmark?

 

And is ultimate freedom the right to carry guns around or the right to be able to get married if you are gay? What is more existential in a freedoms perspective?

[KSG_Standard]

 

How can you determine that you feel more free in the US' date=' if you have never been here in Denmark?

 

And is ultimate freedom the right to carry guns around or the right to be able to get married if you are gay? What is more existential in a freedoms perspective?[/quote']

 

For us in America, the right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right, marriage is not. Gay people can get married in the US, as long as they marry someone of the opposite sex. Gay people can cohabitate and they can get ALL of the legal rights associated with marriage in the US, they just cannot legally marry someone of the same sex.

[hans]

If I come' date=' can I bring my guns? I have a bunch of them, various types and many different calibers.

How about my truck that gets 12 miles per gallon of gas?

Can I get gas for less than $1 per liter?

 

If I earn $100,000 a year, how much of it can I keep for myself?

Can I afford a BIG 3 bedroom house in the country?

Will I have enough left over to save and invest?

 

I'm probably not as familiar with northern Europe as you are with the USA, but all the people I've met and worked with from there gave me little reason to want to make the move beyond simple curiosity.

I may do the tourism thing there someday, I spent a month wandering the UK and the Scottish Highlands in 2000.

 

I've been all over the US and several countries, I [i']already[/i] moved to where I wanted to live.

I had the financial and professional freedom to do so.

 

I'll be right here in Arizona for the foreseeable future, thanks.

 

 

 

If everything comes down to the right to carry guns around and be able to accumulate material wealth you are more superficial than I first anticipated. Oh, by the way: you don't have to carry handguns around town - nobody else is :-) IF, on the other hand, you like hunting with ordinary hunting rifles, shotguns etc. it's no problem - we do that to ;-)

 

P.S. My intention is not to rock the boat, stir things up or being a plain ol' a$$hole - Im just curious about things, so I apologize if I was being to provocative.

[KSG_Standard]

...P.S. My intention is not to rock the boat' date=' stir things up or being a plain ol' a$$hole - Im just curious about things, so I apologize if I was being to provocative.[/quote']

 

Don't apologize brother! We are a provocative bunch, many of us like to talk about this stuff! I welcome your ideas and input.

[NeoConMan]

Accepted.

:-)

 

 

We have many different points of contention and core values among ourselves, getting a foreign society's values mixed up in it will ALWAYS stir up trouble. Works both ways ya know.....

 

And yes, most people overseas don't really "get it" concerning our Constitutional rights, as ours have been the most constant and least manipulated through the centuries. There is a large contingent here who would love to change it.

 

They voted for Obama.

[Homz]

Accepted.

:-)

 

 

We have many different points of contention and core values among ourselves' date=' getting a foreign society's values mixed up in it will ALWAYS stir up trouble. Works both ways ya know.....

 

And yes, most people overseas don't really "get it" concerning our Constitutional rights, as ours have been the most constant and least manipulated through the centuries. There is a large contingent here who would love to change it.

 

They voted for Obama.

[/quote']

 

Some might say we voted to reinstate it.

[hans]

hans' date='

 

Here in the US, we generally include socialists in the liberal category. We tend to think of political views in the following manner:

 

<Communist___Socialist___Democrat_____Moderate___Republican____Libertarian__Fascist>

 

 

My illustration is not intended to be exact or derogatory towards any group, but rather just to show how many of us view the political spectrum.

 

While socialism works for the Danes and many other European countries, and it might work great in Denmark, there are MANY differences between our countries.

 

For example your country has a Constitutional Monarchy and we have a Constitutional Republic. Your country has a population of just over 5.4 million people and your country is much more homogenous in nature than ours. America has over 300 million people and we are not even close to a homogenous society.

 

The Danish welfare model is accompanied by a taxation system that is both broad based (25% VAT, not including excise, duty and tax) and with a progressive income tax model, meaning the more money that is earned, the higher income tax percentage that gets paid (minimum tax rate for adults is 42% scaling to over 60%, except for the residents of Ertholmene that escape the otherwise ubiquitous 8% healthcare tax fraction of the income taxes). Other taxes include the registration tax on private vehicles, at a rate of 180%, on top of VAT. Lately (July, 2007) this has been changed slightly in an attempt to favor more fuel efficient cars but maintaining the average taxation level more or less unchanged. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark

 

Most of Europe, that has a Socialist system of gov't has a higher unemployment rate than America, and the avergage length of unemployment is longer, , and this has been sustained over decades (at least since the 1970s) Most Americans wouldn't accept the same level of unemployment that is the norm in Europe, we are panicking over our current unemployment rate which is still less than 9%. Our unemployment rate has been below 6% for most of the last decade.

 

Denmark is apparently one of the exceptions in Europe and has succeeded with it's system of gov't. I would like to visit your country, but I would not like to live there.

[/quote']

 

Thanks for the wiki-presentation of my country - I don't think it gives you the whole perspective on things though - things are a bit more diverse and complex than what can be written in a few lines :-). For example our monarchy is a mere show for the tourists - In practice we function as a republic. I like to consider Denmark to be a welfare state, which makes few people very rich and fewer people poor, where the broadest shoulders carry the most and where everyone contributes to society to the best of his/her ability. And believe it or not, I as a teacher (currently studying a master in sociology) with my wife (also teacher) and our three kids actually live a pretty decent living in our four bedroom house in a smaller city, even though my expensive four year old car is getting a bit small for the familiy ;-).

 

Last not least; I completely adore the US for all its diversity and me and the family are planning to drive through your country, hopefully in a monstrous black convertible Cadillac, to absorb all the nuances of your broad culture(s) and be enlightened and have our horizons broadened - Hope to see you all there!

[Homz]

 

Thanks for the wiki-presentation of my country - I don't think it gives you the whole perspective on things though - things are a bit more diverse and complex than what can be written in a few lines :-). For example our monarchy is a mere show for the tourists - In practice we function as a republic. I like to consider Denmark to be a welfare state' date=' which makes few people very rich and fewer people poor, where the broadest shoulders carry the most and where everyone contributes to society to the best of his/her ability. And believe it or not, I as a teacher (currently studying a master in sociology) with my wife (also teacher) and our three kids actually live a pretty decent living in our four bedroom house in a smaller city, even though my expensive four year old car is getting a bit small for the familiy ;-).

 

Last not least; I completely adore the US for all its diversity and me and the family are planning to drive through your country, hopefully in a monstrous black convertible Cadillac, to absorb all the nuances of your broad culture(s) and be enlightened and have our horizons broadened - Hope to see you all there![/quote']

 

As much as I love Texas I advice to see San Antonio and perhaps Austin and get the hell out as fast as possible.

[hans]

 

As much as I love Texas I advice to see San Antonio and perhaps Austin and get the hell out as fast as possible.

 

Hehe... Just relax, I am not planning on airing my political views everywhere I go - I'll behave ;-)

[FirstMeasure]

I see you touching on a continuing issue in politics.

 

Being relevant is synonymous with being hip' date=' cool, in style and fashionable.

Since his earliest days as a community agitator and learning the tricks of the trade from Chicago insiders and criminals like Bill Ayers, Obama campaigned on speeches where what he said was compelling and touching but lacked ANYTHING specific that he could be held accountable for later.

 

Make people [i']feel good[/i] about you and they will vote for you.

Keep it vague and nobody can ever pin you down on when you said "............"

 

Issues voters tend to view such slick manipulations with a righteous degree of skepticism and keep their eye on the ball.

 

The only reason I have voted so consistently Republican is that they are the ONLY party who even pretends to represent my interests, and I'll be the first to challenge them as liars when they try the same games as Democrats.

 

 

I feel the same way now as I did when Carter was in office 30 years ago on;

World events and the role played by the USA

Military strength being beyond question or doubt

Taxes (and politicians who PAY them)

Borders & citizenship

Personal liberty/Accountablity

Integrity of ALL who hold public office - right down to the school board and the dog catcher.

Respectable pay for ALL in public schools, police and fire.

Handouts for able-bodied people in ANY form.

Stomping out lying, deceit and corruption at all levels of government and JAILING offender. No quick fines.

The dilution of our language and culture

Crusaders for "tolerance" and "rights" for fringe groups who seek to destroy our society to advance their toxic agenda.

 

I could go on, but anybody who cares can grasp the idea.

 

 

 

Bush was far from perfect, I had my own issues with him (I voted for him 4 times) but Obama has corrected NONE of it.

 

 

As far as the economy turning around - it will turn around for me when my taxes stop going up and I keep more of what I earn. Pissing away trillions of dollars with no plan or strategy (remember that from the Defeatocrats?) and no hope of getting China to carry ANY long term debt isn't exactly the best way to turn it around.

 

Sorry FM, you're so wrong it ain't even funny.

 

I ain't making this stuff up. I don't choose who's relevant and Who's not, I just notice it. Again, I'll point out that I made this point as a Snap Shot of the conservative party and who, in their recent History, can they go to for words of wisdom.

 

Here's the unorthodox way I judge how the economy is turning around. More people are booking Vacations and fewer Second Homes in my area are being foreclosed on. The unemployment rate is relaxing and at the rate that it is relaxing shows some promise of reversing. These are signs!

 

If we wait until your Tax Hikes are reversed, the economy will be fully recovered before your very selfish take on recovery can be measured.

 

I'll admit that much of what I see as recovery needs a little faith in the working calss to pull themselves up by the boot straps, but I have that faith in Americans. All Americans, not just the wealthy Americans, but the Children of the Impoverished that deserve a chance to better themselves in a world that allows it's citizens to prosper, not get stuck in less that educating Public Schools.

 

So, again I'll leave you with the Audacity of Hope, and you can keep on quoting long gone Irrelevant Senators.

 

BTW - Relevant means Relevant, not Hip. P. Diddy is Hip, Clinton is relevant. Unfortunately for you and me, Bush is relevant, too, but he's not Hip. :-)

[Basshole]

I took a test in school last year and 95% percent of my class who took the test got "Moderate"

 

My thought is that most kids don't fully understand poltical views in depth and can't really decided what they like.

[Rocky4]

I took a test in school last year and 95% percent of my class who took the test got "Moderate"

 

My thought is that most kids don't fully understand poltical views in depth and can't really decided what they like.

 

Which makes MTV's "Rock The Vote" campaign terrifying to me

[FirstMeasure]

Voters Voting terrifies you? I think it's great that Young Adults are taking an interest in Politics. The fact that the High School kids tested as Moderate just shows the Ideology of youth and the want to live in a tolerant world that can get along with itself.

 

It's funny that conservatives rail against the uniformed and disinterested youth, then turn around and condemn those that do take interest and Vote as unqualified. Whatever.

[Homz]

How about we weight the vote.

 

15 to 20 = 3 votes

20 to 35 = 2.5 votes

35 to 50 = 1 vote

50 to 65 = 1/2 vote

65 to what ever = 0 votes (let em vote, just don't count them)

 

In this way the people who the votes effect will carry more weight.

 

 

 

:P

[Basshole]

 

Which makes MTV's "Rock The Vote" campaign terrifying to me

 

At college, during election time. people were handing out these flyers with the title "young voter revolution" It was pretty much vote for obama and vote for legalization of gay marriage.

 

Most young kids do start out as liberal...Most not all

as they get older there views begin to shift to more of a conservative view.

[Rocky4]

Let's see....I like R.E.M.....and Michael Stipe likes Bill Clinton.....so I'll vote for Bill Clinton!!!!!

TERRIFYING!!!!!!!

[KSG_Standard]

I ain't making this stuff up. I don't choose who's relevant and Who's not' date=' I just notice it. Again, I'll point out that I made this point as a Snap Shot of the conservative party and who, in their recent History, can they go to for words of wisdom.

 

Here's the unorthodox way I judge how the economy is turning around. More people are booking Vacations and fewer Second Homes in my area are being foreclosed on. The unemployment rate is relaxing and at the rate that it is relaxing shows some promise of reversing. These are signs!

 

If we wait until your Tax Hikes are reversed, the economy will be fully recovered before your very selfish take on recovery can be measured.

 

I'll admit that much of what I see as recovery needs a little faith in the working calss to pull themselves up by the boot straps, but I have that faith in Americans. All Americans, not just the wealthy Americans, but the Children of the Impoverished that deserve a chance to better themselves in a world that allows it's citizens to prosper, not get stuck in less that educating Public Schools.

 

So, again I'll leave you with the Audacity of Hope, and you can keep on quoting long gone Irrelevant Senators.

 

BTW - Relevant means Relevant, not Hip. P. Diddy is Hip, Clinton is relevant. Unfortunately for you and me, Bush is relevant, too, but he's not Hip. :-)[/quote']

 

 

I don't see how you can say that the economy is improving. It appears that by objective measurement the economy continues to decline. While some areas may seem to be improving, most areas do not. Do you have some other documentation that tells a different story?

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aIq.yiT0.KuI&refer=home

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jYpmPSg0IbaMEFonSzy5g-fIAR0gD98FGJDG4

http://www.economicindicators.gov/

Gross Domestic Product, 1st quarter 2009 (preliminary)

Corporate Profits, 1st quarter 2009 (preliminary)

Real gross domestic product -- the output of goods and services produced by labor and property

located in the United States -- decreased at an annual rate of 5.7 percent in the first quarter of 2009, (that

is, from the fourth quarter to the first quarter), according to preliminary estimates released by the Bureau

of Economic Analysis. In the fourth quarter, real GDP decreased 6.3 percent.

[Basshole]

Voters Voting terrifies you? I think it's great that Young Adults are taking an interest in Politics. The fact that the High School kids tested as Moderate just shows the Ideology of youth and the want to live in a tolerant world that can get along with itself.

 

It's funny that conservatives rail against the uniformed and disinterested youth' date=' then turn around and condemn those that do take interest and Vote as unqualified. Whatever.[/quote']

 

I asked my friend who was a first time voter last year, I asked him who he voted for. He said obama

So I asked him why he voted for him.

 

His face looked confused and gave me a answer of "Because I like him and everyone else is voting for him"

I smiled and agreed.

Alot of my other friends gave me the same type of answer

 

I asked why he liked him and he gave me another vauge answer

 

 

My point is we shoud research what we are voting for and not go off someone elses view or thought. Become informed on what we are voting for and not go off shallow detail.

[FirstMeasure]

 

I asked my friend who was a first time voter last year' date=' I asked him who he voted for. He said obama

So I asked him why he voted for him.

 

His face looked confused and gave me a answer of "Because I like him and everyone else is voting for him"

I smiled and agreed.

Alot of my other friends gave me the same type of answer

 

I asked why he liked him and he gave me another vauge answer

 

 

My point is we should research what we are voting for and not go off someone elses view or thought. Become informed on what we are voting for and not go off shallow detail.[/quote']

That can be said for all ages. It's been my experience that those who follow, will follow for their whole life, those who inform themselves and rely on their own judgment, do so from a young age. The nature of politics is, indeed, to sway those who are swayable, the Swing Voters that could care less about politics in the off seasons. That's why there's so many Political discussions, rally's, and speeches. I remember full grown Men and Women who said they were Voting for GW because they felt safe or they "Just Didn't Know" about John Kerry. Ask them why they felt safe or what they didn't trust about Kerry, and you get the same blank stare and uniformed response. There's no Birthday that suddenly makes a Voter "Get It".

 

The Younger a person is when they interest themselves in Government, the better. When they reach their 30's, they won't be trying to figure out what's going on, They'll have lost enough arguments to realize they need to Inform Themselves or Shut Up and keep their votes secret.

[Homz]

I hate to admit it, but I voted straight ticket for the first time in my life in the November election. It saddens me to have had to do that.

[NeoConMan]

How about we weight the vote.

 

15 to 20 = 3 votes

20 to 35 = 2.5 votes

35 to 50 = 1 vote

50 to 65 = 1/2 vote

65 to what ever = 0 votes (let em vote' date=' just don't count them)

 

In this way the people who the votes effect will carry more weight.

[/quote']

 

Homz, did you ever stop to think - and forget to start again?