NeoConMan Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Where did this come from? Bawney Fwank' date=' Chris Dodd, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Equal Opportunity Lending, and the grave political concerns regarding what voters 'deserve' to get from the gov't at the expense of 4% of the population. Wanna help EVERYBODY? Cut taxes. Let people who work and earn a wage keep more of what is already theirs. Wanna REALLY help everybody? [b']Flat tax.[/b] Meanwhile, I'm part of the 4% that actually pays for this idiocy. Looking at my taxes last night as a matter of fact..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Bawney Fwank' date=' Chris Dodd, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Equal Opportunity Lending, and the grave political concerns regarding what voters 'deserve' to get from the gov't at the expense of 4% of the population.[/quote'] You do not really believe that the handful of low income minorities that foreclosed on their houses brought our economy to its knees, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Rich' date=' you and others are under the misguided notion that I support the banks in this bailout.Nothing could be further from the truth.[/quote'] No way, Neo. I'm well aware that you're a dyed in the wool Republican who believes in core Republican values. I was just venting how I thought it sucked that banks that got in over their heads are being thrown money while individuals who got in over their heads are being thrown out of their homes by the very same banks that accepted those taxpayers' help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max2343 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Good Point Richci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 You do not really believe that the handful of low income minorities that foreclosed on their houses brought our economy to its knees' date=' do you? [/quote'] It was enough that, due to vociferousness of those foreclosed upon, who had no business taking out the sometimes fraudulent loans in the first place, it caused a 'run' on our financial system. A bank run can be caused by nothing more than a whipser. Facts, figures and money have nothing to do with it. It's all about perceptions of solvency, whether true or not. It begins in the mind and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Tell people long enough that the economy is bad, they begin to believe it's bad, then son-of-a-gun, the economy tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 RogerGLewis - so many good points, brother. I have heard that your government has been a lot tougher on banks that took the bail out money. The root of a lot of this in the States was *mass* deregulation in the 90's up through 2007. Investment banks were allowed to merge with commercial banks and risk was sold off for a profit. When the whole thing collapsed there was no one to payout for the massive losses since that risk had been bought and sold to people with no capital. Second, now you have entities so large that if they fail they bring the whole economy down with them. Third, very few people received any punishment for this ludicrous and short sighted behavior. If you take a massive risk and get burned, you should have to pay. No one did and it does not look like the laws or regulations will be changed to make sure that people have to take responsibility for stupid behavior. It's enough to turn any man into a pessimist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Tell people long enough that the economy is bad' date=' they begin to believe it's bad, then son-of-a-gun, the economy tanks. [/quote'] If only it were that simple. You can kill a company's stock price with trash talk and rumors, but the world's largest economy takes a lot more than that. The current recession has been a long time in the works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I guess... as I said... I'm cynical. Them as has, gets. I doubt that with the exception of the Madoffs of the banking world that the true "big guys" will hurt. Stockholders short term, yup. But I think the guys in the know, knew - and had themselves covered. Taxation, as Neo suggests, is a major difference between a number of 19th and early 20th century economic disasters and what we have now. Tax policy is control policy. Politicians will take each opportunity they can find to further their own perspectives and convictions of what they want for a future. Today in the US it seems as if socialism is the goal. Now one cry I hear is, "Banks and other major businesses today are international, so we can't split them up 'cuz it would be anticompetitive." That plus socialism = becoming more European-like. But is Europe finding that has its own problems, especially with former "eastern bloc" nations, India and China taking increasing part in the economy? I dunno. What I do know is that we're not in the same sort of economic world as we were even in the 70s. I just kinda feel for the younger guys who will have to figure out how to survive in an economic world far different from past circumstances. I dunno. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myspace.com/jessenoah Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 even though I was a boy scout as a youth, I think I will just move to montana or north dakota or someplace practically in the middle of no where It sure is fun to play devil's advocate, and discuss the theories behind why things are happening, but the sad part is, is that while we sit here and try to rationalize what is going on, people are REALLY losing their homes, and their jobs, this isnt just something that is happening on the TV, it is happening to neighbors, freinds from church/school/work/dog parks/ect the sh!t is hitting the fan all around us, I hate to be the pessimist (spelling?), but the world is going to hell in a hand basket, and I wonder who is carrying the hand basket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Milod, You're not the only one who clearly remembers the "general malaise" of the late seventies.... If only it were that simple. You can kill a company's stock price with trash talk and rumors' date=' but the world's largest economy takes a lot more than that. The current recession has been a long time [b']in the works[/b]. And the party bent on taking it there has been working on it since 2003. In the midst of unprecedented prosperity, an economy the likes of which the United States had never seen, with unemployment at record-setting lows, with private investments at the greatest levels ever in ALL income brackets, the party seeking to return to power was throwing every populist turd they could find into the fan of public opinion. 2003 is when the grumbling and public comments during press conferences began on this "terrible" economy and the "struggling" working class (translated as unions) because thy opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. They needed something, anything to get people to listen to them and went back to that old saw about the tales of woe and struggle of the working man - which in the last 3 decades has come to include millions of people who will NOT work but have trouble making ends meet on what their Rich Uncle Sam gives 'em every month. So, they start talking about how the rich get richer while the "American public" - which is supposed to be a gathering/uniting phrase for all of us - are struggling and drowning. Do you REALLY need me to search for the news clips and quotes in print from Reid, Pelosi and others who returned to power on this single issue? They OWN this economy. There were some shenanigans going on in the financial world - there always has been and there always will be. The party in power has NEVER had much of an effect on that. But one party in DC will "never let a crisis go to waste" in their quest for their unique brand of leadership. The sheep are being herded ever-so-gently to the voting booths. You guys wanna believe that abandoning the most basic core principles from centuries past, that this nation was founded on, and any "coincidental" suggestions from the Bible that may also be present, is in our best interest? Because we've progressed so far in our New Modern World that somehow NEEDS to be fundamentally changed because all that old-fashioned stuff about personal accountability just doesn't work? See 2008 election... We don't need to change the rules. We need to follow them. If you're already doing it at home (are you really?) then you should be voting for people in DC to do the same. THAT'S where the problem is - has been for for 100 years and has gotten BAD over the last 20 years. I apologize to the Mod Squad if this is too much of a political slant on this for their tastes. I would rather this thread get locked down or disappear into the ethers of cyberspace than to allow it to live. This has become one more example of Baby Truth being cast out with the bath water and the media is complicit. People hear these 5-second sound bites, then they understand (?) politics - and vote! Sorry Jesse. :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverside Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Someone needs to take a pill or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 ... and be numb above the neck like the people who vote to perpetuate this stupidity,eh? What do YOU recommend? Sorry, will remain pill free here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverside Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 ... and be numb above the neck like the people who vote to perpetuate this stupidity' date='eh?What do YOU recommend? Sorry, will remain pill free here.[/quote'] Perhaps, but then we wouldn't have to slog through the hot air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Can't breathe now? There's a pill for that too I'm sure. That, or click elsewhere if you find the content upsets your tummy... Oh, the "we" thing. Who are you speaking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverside Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Can't breathe now? There's a pill for that too I'm sure. That' date=' or click elsewhere if you find the content upsets your tummy...[/quote'] I'm fine. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Soros = Hitler. Believe it. I'll qualify that statement by saying that's a name I rarely utter and NEVER throw around lightly. The more you learn about both men, the more you'll understand where I'm coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverside Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 The "H" word appears in a forum! What a maroon. It's called "Argumentum ad Hominem"... Tag - you're it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myspace.com/jessenoah Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Sorry Jesse. I can only call it as I see it' date=' and I see a nice log cabin in the mountians with no TV, no internet, but i sure hope there is running water and power outlets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Jesse... a cabin in the mountains? Good luck. It can sorta work now, but not if there's a real collapse. The problem with "survivalism" is that it's really not terribly practical in any sort of long run. The population is such that I would strongly question whether a sort of early 19th century economy would function without lots of starvation and a dropping of the US population, for example, to 150 million or less. Even less with an 18th century economy. "Living off the land" sounds good if you're tough, self-confident, and have a 19th century or earlier skill set that a few ranchers I know do have, but most of us don't. There are difficulties involved even in "America's Outback" with any sort of taxation system as we have today. Food wouldn't be such a problem for a year or two under some potential scenarios, but heat definitely would be. There's not enough resource for a 19th century lifestyle for current population. "Outback" is "outback" simply because it does not do well in terms of production of food or other basic items of survival. That's why ranches here are measured in "sections" rather than "acres," and why population density is sparse. And that's with good transportation for commerce. Up in the hills, folks find little or no growing season. They live off produce from flatlanders. Stop commerce and they starve or move downhill into another set of challenges. Even the Lakota, contrary to "Dances with Wolves," didn't use the Black Hills or Big Horns much in winter. Deer and elk come down hill in winter. There are lots of sci fi and think-tank folks writing "futurist" scenarios, btw. Some include a "what happens if a pandemic cuts 40 percent or more of the work force - 80 percent or more if you consider need for caregiving. Whew. A "socialist" economy doesn't work if there's not enough "wherewithall" to create and distribute the necessities of life such as food, water and heat. Neither does a "capitalist" economy. Both require mass production of "necessities." Even "root hog, or die" has finite limits. The "survivalist" concept of a gang with firearms is silly because at a certain point, you can't eat what ain't grown or shipped to you from elsewhere. Seeds to grow in local conditions? Caring for a sustainable livestock herd without supplements and wells? As to the "winners" in the current economy? Cynicism? Yeah, I think the guys who are making it knew the result of what they were doing. I do not think they got in over their heads - I think they knew and exploited it. The weakness to their thinking is their hope that government would rescue the general economy. They've been right. So far. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverside Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Hey, who's doing the name calling around here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 I gotta get back to work but guys who wanna live in log cabins in the mountains? Good luck. It sounds good, but you'd better have a day job. You can't garden; it takes more land for livestock than most could afford in today's mountain areas of the US - assuming the government doesn't own it and forbids pretty much everything. Madness extends extends everywhere, even along the Belle Fourche, the Little Missouri and Moreau. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Roger... In a sense I know many old friends figure that I'm "the old man in the mountains" as things are now. <grin> You might be shocked at just how sparse things are here, even today, in comparison with anywhere in the UK. But honestly, I think the economy in today's world is such that we may be approaching the same sort of circumstances as speeded the "black death" of the Middle Ages. I'm almost certain the UK is doing the same as the US and elsewhere in having had at least a start at figure what to do in case of a pandemic. Even a 20 percent "casualty rate" could bring functionally a 40 percent or higher rate of folks not doing their regular work. The effect of that is not at all pleasant. Other factors besides a pandemic could bring the same sorts of problems. As you mentioned with the slugs and such, subsistence farming is a very difficult task. We have come so much to rely on imported foods and "restaurants," as did the Romans of antiquity at their apex, that a breakdown in that transportation and distribution system is frightening. I think people don't realize what a thin thread we have holding this all together with current populations. Look at the past to see what has happened after a break in transportation and communication. It ain't pretty. For what it's worth, consider that given a good machine shop, some decent brass, iron and steel, many average men likely could manufacture some sort of a steam engine. But a computer chip? Even copper wire without a copper mine, fuel for a fire and the skills to do what must be done? m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 The "H" word appears in a forum! What a maroon. It's called "Argumentum ad Hominem"... Tag - you're it. "H" word? Homz? Got 'im on speed dial or are you two MySpace/IM buddies? Figures he would put you up to such serial harassament. Maybe I should monitor your profile and follow YOU from thread to thread to piss on your posts. Sounds amusing. Think I will. Name-caller. Get back to us when you actually have something to offer in the way of dialogue. Unless' date=' of course, you enjoy being a speed bump on the Information Super Highway. Think you do... P.S., Good job with the Big & Scary Latin words. Some people here might think you're smart or something..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Hey' date=' who's doing the name calling around here?[/quote']Someone needs to take a pill or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Jesse... a cabin in the mountains? Good luck. It can sorta work now' date=' but not if there's a real collapse....m[/quote'] I agree Milod. Most people who declare, "I'm going to 'drop out'" have no clue what they are getting into. Give them the basic of basic necessities, A good scatter gun with a good selection of rounds, a top of the line Bowie knife and an axe. They will be reduced to sniveling babes by Sunday afternoon, crawling to the nearest Ranger Station... if they can find it. I too don't have all the necessary skills to survive years in the outback, but I'm smart enough to not tread there long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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