Advice for an Old Newbie

[Snakebite Pettigrew]

Hello All,

 

At the age of 55 I decided to take up guitar. I started with an electric as much of the advice I read suggested that success with chords might come a little easier. Sure enough I was pretty happy with my progress (now a little less than two years) and after spending some time lurking on the acoustic forums I decided to treat myself to a Gibson J-45 for the holidays. Trust me the guitar is far superior to my quite limited talents but I look forward to at least a decade or two of growing into it.

 

I would appreciate a bit of advice.

 

Though I can play bar chords cleanly on my Epi Casino (11 gauge strings) anything short of a death grip on my J-45 produces a pretty buzzy full bar F. Moving up to G it gets ok and my A at the fifth fret is pretty clean.

 

When I purchased the J-45 I stepped down from 12s to 11s. I have also tried tuning down a half step and it helped a bit. I am willing to keep plugging away as even with the buzzing and occasional muted strings I love this thing but I wonder if it would be helpful to try 10s or should I just keep squeezing until I develop a grip of steel? I know I would lose some of the tone with 10s but I imagine it would be a temporary measure.

 

(By the way I am trying to be careful with proper grip – thumb in the middle of the neck, more or less behind the index/middle finger right?)

 

 

Thanks for your advice and thanks to all who so willingly and patiently share their wisdom and info with old/newbies like me.

[ksdaddy]

I'm very fussy about the height of the nut slots and find them to be often too high from the factory. That one single element of a guitar's setup can make a huge difference.

 

Just for giggles, put a capo at the first fret and see how much of a difference there is. I bet that F chord will be much more pleasant.

[tedmac]

Well I started about 2 1/2 yrs ago and I am 46. So I am with ya there. As far as the acoustic buzzing, there is no doubt that playing acoustic vs electric guitar takes a heavy hand. I started on acoustic and mentioned to the guy I take lessons from that it was alot tougher playing acoustic. He is the one who said that it takes a heavy hand and that with practice your fingers will strengthen. And he was correct. Its taken time but my fingers have become stronger. He said that to start on acoustic is tougher but will payoff when you do play electric because it makes it easier.

So theres my 1 1/2 cents. Good luck.

[rar]

I'm very fussy about the height of the nut slots and find them to be often too high from the factory.

 

+1 -- The "buzzy F' date=' okay G, clean A" pretty much implies high nut slots.

 

Generally, if you haven't had a pro set up the guitar, I'd recommend it. In addition to getting the nut slots lowered, dialing in right amount of neck relief, leveling the frets, and appropriately lowering the saddle can make a [b']huge[/b] difference in playability.

 

-- Bob R

[larryp58]

+1 -- The "buzzy F' date=' okay G, clean A" pretty much implies high nut slots.

 

Generally, if you haven't had a pro set up the guitar, I'd recommend it. In addition to getting the nut slots lowered, dialing in right amount of neck relief, leveling the frets, and appropriately lowering the saddle can make a [b']huge[/b] difference in playability.

 

-- Bob R

 

 

Ya'll hit the nail on the head!!!

[bkharmony]

I started fairly late in life (28), and had all the same troubles you mentioned, SP. It's been ten years, and the fact is, I never really got any better at playing clean barre chords until I seriously started playing regularly. It's just strength and conditioning*, and the only proven way to get better is to play more. (Which hopefully is a pleasant thing!)

 

Definitely get a pro setup, and go ahead and switch to lights (10s). I think most folks here play them. Just keep in mind the heavier strings will also strengthen your fingers quicker.

 

Also, you might try the alternate open fingering of F. It's a lot easier.

 

http://www.chorder.com/guitar-chords/F/major/5

 

*OK, not entirely strength and conditioning. There is some technique to it as well. For instance, when you're playing an E-shape barre, you really don't need to barre the A, D and G strings, as your other fingers are fretting those notes. So, you can learn minute ways of easing the tension in that part of your index finger - kind of curving it - that will alleviate the "death grip" and make it easier to play.

[drathbun]

In addition to ensuring that the nut is properly setup for first position chords, proper technique has a LOT to do with being able to fret barre chords properly.

 

A lot of people say practice practice... but if you are practicing improper technique, you'll get nowhere fast. The key to barre chords is technique... specifically, your body/arm/wrist position.

 

If you are using a death grip to fret your barres cleanly then you are using the wrong technique. The weight of your arm on the neck with NO pressure from your thumb at all should be sufficient to fret the notes cleanly.

 

Lay your finger across in the barre position without closing your thumb, let your thumb hang. Let the weight of your arm rest on that finger. Now, if your elbow is pointing away from your left thigh, you'll have very little weight on that finger and the soft pad of your finger will be resting on the strings. Now without moving your finger, turn your elbow so it points to your left thigh/hip. Your finger will roll over as you move the elbow and will be resting on the strings across the SIDE of your index finger and you'll feel the weight of your arm rest on the string too. Rolling the index finger back towards the nut by rotating the elbow (lowering your left shoulder a bit) is really key to the proper grip. Now just touch your thumb to the underside of the neck.

 

With the side of the finger fretting across the strings, you are using the hardest most inflexible part of the finger.

 

Try this: with palm down, point your left index finger straight out. Now with your right hand push down on the tip of the left index finger. It will bend down right?

 

Now, flip your left wrist 90 degrees so your palm is facing you and your index finger is still point straight out. Now with your right hand press down on the tip of your index finger. Won't move will it? Your finger doesn't bend that way. So use that side of the finger for the barre. It is like a steel rod in comparison to the soft underside of the finger.

[bkharmony]

Lay your finger across in the barre position without closing your thumb' date=' let your thumb hang. Let the weight of your arm rest on that finger. Now, if your elbow is pointing away from your left thigh, you'll have very little weight on that finger and the soft pad of your finger will be resting on the strings. Now without moving your finger, turn your elbow so it points to your left thigh/hip. Your finger will roll over as you move the elbow and will be resting on the strings across the SIDE of your index finger and you'll feel the weight of your arm rest on the string too. Rolling the index finger back towards the nut by rotating the elbow (lowering your left shoulder a bit) is really key to the proper grip. Now just touch your thumb to the underside of the neck.[/quote']

 

drathbun, I'm not questioning what you said, but this makes no sense to me whatsoever. Are you talking about sitting? Standing? How can the weight of your arm press frets down when your barre finger is parallel to the fretboard?

[BillyTweed]

I agree with the comments about checking setup and using lighter gauge strings (though I wouldn't go below 12's myself), but if you've been playing guitar for two years and can't form a clean F barre chord, I think the problem more likely comes from lack of proper technique and lack of practice time.

 

I apologize if that sounds mean spirited as I surely don't mean it that way. I speak from personal experience. I'm not the most talented guitarist myself and really only began seriously working at it in the past two years (I am 59). In the last six months my playing has improved dramatically. And you know what? My rate of improvement has been directly proportionate to the amount of time I spent playing and practicing. There is simply no substitute for practice.

 

I also took a few lessons which focused on playing techniques and discovered some great tips and got some good feedback which helped me get past some issues I'd been having. As I say, I'm not a great guitarist and probably never will be, but I've reached a level where I can play the kind of music I want to play, play with others without feeling embarrassed, and where I can see a road to getting my playing to even higher levels in the coming years.

 

Of course, it's critical that you are practicing the right technique as well. Practicing the wrong technique is counterproductive. It will instill bad habit and/or be ineffectual. Either way, you're likely to become discouraged and think (as I did for many years), I just don't have the talent to do this.

 

My guess is that you DO have the talent. So my recommendation to you:

 

1. Have a qualified luthier check out the setup of your guitar and make any necessary adjustments.

2. Use medium-light gauge strings (D'Addario Flat Tops .012-.053 would be a good choice)

3. Pay for a lesson to evaluate your barre technique.

4. Pick up your guitar and practice your barre chords EVERY DAY for at least 5 minutes*

 

*5 minutes practice every day will produce better (and quicker) results than 35 minutes practice once a week.

 

Good luck and I hope you conquer the dreaded F barre. But even if you don't, there are a million great songs you can play without using barre chords. So just remember, it's supposed to be an enjoyable experience, not a technique contest.

[sfden1]

Agree it sounds like a set-up issue at the nut. Just be sure to take it to someone who really knows what their doing. That probably won't be the guy at the local GC.

 

And guys, let up on the technique stuff already. He said he has no problem with barre chords on his Epi, just the J-45. Sounds like the OP has the technique down o.k. Snakebite, welcome to the forum, and congrats on your new J-45. Get that puppy set up right and you'll be a happy camper.

[drathbun]

drathbun' date=' I'm not questioning what you said, but this makes no sense to me whatsoever. Are you talking about sitting? Standing? How can the weight of your arm press frets down when your barre finger is parallel to the fretboard?[/quote']

 

Sorry if I'm not explaining myself very well. This is a very visual thing easier demonstrated than described. I am talking about sitting position.

 

And sfden1, I only mentioned technique because of the comment "anything short of a death grip" in the original post. Squeezing a barre chord on a Casino with 11's is a fairly easy thing to do. However, using the squeeze grip for barre chords is not proper technique.

 

The technique I was trying to describe is rolling the index finger back towards the nut so you are using the side of your finger not the flat.

 

I was trying to get across the idea in your head that the weight of your arm and shoulder on the fretboard should be enough pressure to fret the notes. If you are using more pressure and tension than that, the technique is not correct. I'm also paraphrasing very loosely from Jamie Andreas' guitar technique lessons about body position and body tension.

 

Sorry if I'm confusing things... the rolling of the index finger to the side has always been an excellent technique that works for me.

 

 

PS: I found Jamie's lesson about the weight of the arm. He explains soooo much better than I can!

 

Easy Barre Chords

[bkharmony]

Sorry if I'm confusing things... the rolling of the index finger to the side has always been an excellent technique that works for me.

 

No apologies necessary. You're doing us a service. I just want to understand fully.

 

Thanks for the help.

[suburude63]

This was a very informative thread ! Thanks!

[Snakebite Pettigrew]

Thanks everyone for all of the great suggestions, having lurked for a while it doesn’t surprise me that all of you are so helpful and giving of your time. Started a search this weekend for a good luthier - any advice on how to judge one without letting go of your guitar for week or two only to find that they still didn’t do the best job?

 

I may have exaggerated when I said death grip. I picked up the Casino again just to check things out and realized that it’s just a heck of a lot easier to smush those strings, though it did make me feel like I was kinda cheating on a new girlfriend. So I slowed down and carefully evaluated finger placement etc. – seemed to help quite a bit. I think I need to develop a talking blues in F just so my wife won’t go crazy hearing the same chord over and over again.

 

As for teachers – is it common to ask a teacher for only one or two lessons every now and again?

 

Again thanks to everyone.

 

SP