unusual gibson?

[Red 333]

love the finish cracks and "love marks" on it.

 

It has cracks in the finish? That makes it even more likely it is an end-of-production US Epiphone badged as a Gibson; once Epiphone production moved to Japan, the guitars were finished with poly, not laquer. Poly does not crack like laquer. I am puzzled by the soundhole rossette, though. THAT looks like it has Asian origin; Asian Epiphones often have extra sets of rings around the sound hole.

 

Is there a label inside the guitar? What does it say?

 

Are there numbers on the neck block?

 

Red 333

[TommyK]

The 'high brow' headstock says 'Epiphone' to me.

 

Where does it say "Made In USA"?

 

I have read here that for a brief time some Gibsons had a 3 screw TRC.

 

The TRC and Tuner attachment screws look like phillips head. Phillips head screws on vintage guitars usually equate with Japan.

 

The pyramid capped tuners look like some I've seen on a 12 string over on the Epiphone board. Owner swears they are OEM. Other posters say this type of tuner is consistent with some Norlin Epiphones.

 

Caveat emptor.

[BigKahune]

Call Gibson C/S and have them check the serial. Their records may indicate an acoustic of this type.

[ksdaddy]

Mmmmm.... yeah, they will! But it will be a guitar made in K'zoo in 1980. I don't think this was made anywhere in the continental 48.

[BigKahune]

ksd - you think it's a fake? Or a rebranded Epi?

[ksdaddy]

God, I dont know. I just don't see anything on that guitar that says Gibson other than the decal. On the other hand it looks like a base model Epi (not familiar with the model numbers).

[Murph]

This further supports my theory that your guitar may have been built by Gibson with leftover Epiphone parts after production moved overseas.

 

Is this even possible?

 

A fake' date=' actually made by Gibson?

 

[mooseguy]

Jeffry:

 

PLEASE PAY THE $350 - CLOSE YOUR EYES AND DREAM THAT YOU BOUGHT YOURSELF A WAYNE HENDERSON

 

THIS SHOULD MAKE YOUR DAY

 

MOOSE

[jeffreylucky1]

Jeffry:

 

PLEASE PAY THE $350 - CLOSE YOUR EYES AND DREAM THAT YOU BOUGHT YOURSELF A WAYNE HENDERSON

 

THIS SHOULD MAKE YOUR DAY

 

MOOSE

LMAO!

[jeffreylucky1]

It has cracks in the finish? That makes it even more likely it is an end-of-production US Epiphone badged as a Gibson; once Epiphone production moved to Japan' date=' the guitars were finished with poly, not laquer. Poly does not crack like laquer. I am puzzled by the soundhole rossette, though. THAT looks like it has Asian origin; Asian Epiphones often have extra sets of rings around the sound hole.

 

The headstock logo is also consistent with the year that Epiphone production was moved to Japan. This further supports my theory that your guitar may have been built by Gibson with leftover Epiphone parts aftere producution moved overseas.

 

Is there a label inside the guitar? What does it say?

 

Are there numbers on the neck block?

 

Red 333[/quote']

the finish cracks are on the body (top only) and look like it was brought in from the cold into a warm room at one time. there is no label or writing on the inside of the body that i can see. the neck block almost looks too big to me. it almost comes to the soundhole (might be normal, but not on my acoustics).

[Red 333]

Is this even possible?

 

A fake' date=' actually made by Gibson?

 

 

 

[/quote']

 

Sure. Gibsons and Epiphones were built side by side in Kalamazoo in those days. Once Epiphone production moved to Japan, there may have been unfinished guitars (or parts of guitars) lying around in Kalamazoo that they simply badged as Gibson. The square shoulder body shape is entirely consistent of the last models of US-made Epiphones, as well as late '70s/early '80s Gibsons, as is the volute. From what little I can see through the soundhole, the back braces are also heavy like the J45s of that era. Maybe a worker simply assembled it from left-over parts if it was not an official product. We need better pics to make sure, but I wouldn't rule out that it is genuine. It may not be, but it bears nmore scrutiny before we rule it out...

 

Red 333

[Red 333]

The 'high brow' headstock says 'Epiphone' to me.

 

The TRC and Tuner attachment screws look like phillips head. Phillips head screws on vintage guitars usually equate with Japan.

 

Note the Phillips Head screws used on the Gibson Sonex from what is presumed to be the same year (and with the same headstock decal), above.

 

Red 333

[jeffreylucky1]

Sure. Gibsons and Epiphones were built side by side in Kalamazoo in those days. Once Epiphone production moved to Japan' date=' there may have been unfinished guitars (or parts of guitars) lying around in Kalamazoo that they simply badged as Gibson. The square shoulder body shape is entirely consistent of the last models of US-made Epiphones, as well as late '70s/early '80s Gibsons, as is the volute. From what little I can see through the soundhole, the back braces are also heavy like the J45s of that era. Maybe a worker simply assembled it from left-over parts if it was not an official product. We need better pics to make sure, but I wouldn't rule out that it is genuine. It may not be, but it bears nmore scrutiny before we rule it out...

 

Red 333 [/quote']

what do you want pics of? i'll be in the same town as the pawn shop this week and i'll take some for you. i was trying to take the others without looking too interested in case it was worth something other than just as a player....lol

[TommyK]

In '66 Epi's had that high brow head stock:

> > > 1966 catalog < < <

 

Body shape is similar to a Frontier or El Dorado, but this vintage of Epi would be worth the money he is asking without a Gibson face-lift.

 

The Norlin FT series didn't have this high brow HS. However, the Norlin FT replacement series, the PR, might have.

 

One of us mentioned it has a large neck block, coming almost to the sound hole. This is consistent with the Norlin FT bolt-on necks. Some were bolted through the back and heelless. The upscale models had heels, but were bolted on similar to a Taylor. with the bolt showing through the neck block, pointing towards the tail button. Some heeled FTs are shown in this:

> > > 1974 catalog < < <

 

 

t... the neck block almost looks too big to me. it almost comes to the soundhole (might be normal' date=' but not on my acoustics).[/quote']

 

This MIGHT indicate a bolt-on neck. The Norlin FT bolt-ons had a neck block that came to within a half inch of the sound hole.

[StijnV]

That's really an odd bird ! The logo was indeed used for low-end solidbody guitars.

 

Stijn Vergeest

Gibson Europe Customer Service

00800-4GIBSON1

00800-44427661

www.gibson.com

service.europe@gibson.com

[BigKahune]

I'm very much enjoying this thread.

 

TommyK -

 

Great dig. Some have been entertaining the idea of a rebranded Epi. After seeing you contributions, it sure does look like an Epi. Very interesting.

[jeffreylucky1]

I'm very much enjoying this thread.

 

TommyK -

 

Great dig. Some have been entertaining the idea of a rebranded Epi. After seeing you contributions' date=' it sure does look like an Epi. Very interesting.

 

 

[/quote']

thanks. i even joined my first forum over this thing. usually i can get info from several sources when i find an odd piece, but not this time! i am glad everyone finds this as entertaining as i do.

[mooseguy]

Jeffry:

 

I have the perfect solution to pleasuring your $350 wonder axx to obtain its height of tone perfection.

Keep it in very close proximity to an Esteban which you must now also buy. A growing closeness between the two should thereby result in a window rattling sustain.

 

Oh well this is just an idea-but I tried.

 

Moose

[Red 333]

In '66 Epi's had that high brow head stock:

> > > 1966 catalog < < <

 

Body shape is similar to a Frontier or El Dorado' date=' but this vintage of Epi would be worth the money he is asking without a Gibson face-lift.

 

The Norlin FT series didn't have this high brow HS. However, the Norlin FT replacement series, the PR, might have.

 

One of us mentioned it has a large neck block, coming almost to the sound hole. This is consistent with the Norlin FT bolt-on necks. Some were bolted through the back and heelless. The upscale models had heels, but were bolted on similar to a Taylor. with the bolt showing through the neck block, pointing towards the tail button. Some heeled FTs are shown in this:

> > > 1974 catalog < < <

 

 

 

 

This MIGHT indicate a bolt-on neck. The Norlin FT bolt-ons had a neck block that came to within a half inch of the sound hole.

 

Yeah, the large neck block and the extra rings around the rossette (which I mentioned in a previous post) point towards a guitar made off-shore (like the Norlin-era FTs with bolt-on necks).

 

Also, the lack of a soundhole label is also a potential sign of a forgery: the forger would remove the Epiphone label if he/she applied the Gibson sticker to the headstock.

 

Lucky, you asked what to take photos of: see if you can get a pic of the neck block (or see whether you can locate a bolt there). Also, some close ups of the neck around and below the volute would be good, too. I'm not sure when the Asian manufacturers started using scarf joints, but the presence of one would certainly rule out the guitar as being made by Gibson in the US.

 

Take a few shots of any wear spots or cracks; poly chips and dents, but doesn't wear, fade, or age like nitro. These may give us something to go on, too.

[jeffreylucky1]

Jeffry:

 

I have the perfect solution to pleasuring your $350 wonder axx to obtain its height of tone perfection.

Keep it in very close proximity to an Esteban which you must now also buy. A growing closeness between the two should thereby result in a window rattling sustain.

 

Oh well this is just an idea-but I tried.

 

Moose

You are funny moose. What's your address? They have an esteban there as well and i might see if they'll throw it in just for you. ;)

[mooseguy]

Jeffrey:

 

Thanks for being such a good sport and graced with a real sense of humor

I wish you the most happiness with the $350 wonder axx . I have got to know how she made out with the Esteban should you decide on a menage a trois.

 

Regards,

 

Moose

[jeffreylucky1]

Jeffrey:

 

Thanks for being such a good sport and graced with a real sense of humor

I wish you the most happiness with the $350 wonder axx . I have got to know how she made out with the Esteban should you decide on a menage a trois.

 

Regards' date='

 

Moose

 

[/quote']

i strummed the esteban.......weird tone.......it sounded like it was calling "mooooose"

[jeffreylucky1]

Yeah' date=' the large neck block and the extra rings around the rossette (which I mentioned in a previous post) point towards a guitar made off-shore (like the Norlin-era FTs with bolt-on necks).

 

Also, the lack of a soundhole label is also a potential sign of a forgery: the forger would remove the Epiphone label if he/she applied the Gibson sticker to the headstock.

 

Lucky, you asked what to take photos of: see if you can get a pic of the neck block (or see whether you can locate a bolt there). Also, some close ups of the neck around and below the volute would be good, too. I'm not sure when the Asian manufacturers started using scarf joints, but the presence of one would certainly rule out the guitar as being made by Gibson in the US.

 

Take a few shots of any wear spots or cracks; poly chips and dents, but doesn't wear, fade, or age like nitro. These may give us something to go on, too. [/quote']

here are some more pics for those interested. note the fretboard by the soundhole....seems to have been "plugged" to cover dowels or screws or a repair (3 small circles....2 on fret 16 one on 19)

the block is not as close to soundhole as i remembered....just seems large to me but looked consistent with other acoustics in the store.

i took pics to show side of soundhole to show top seems solid, not laminated (but not certain...i'm no expert)

i also wanted to show interior bracing and pics of back. the top is x braced (like most i've seen)

the back seam is as off center as earlier pics showed.....i just didn't pay attention at until it was pointed out.

[jeffreylucky1]

here is a close-up of the finish cracks and the off center back seam

[Red 333]

Is that a little gap between the neck heel and the body? That's a classic sign of the early ('70s that is), Japanese made Epiphones, which were made by Matsumoko for Norlin (parent company of Gibson at the time). The necks frequently seperate from the body. TommyK may be able to tell you more about that. I don't recall seeing a Matsumoko-made Epiphone the paddle-shaped headstock, though, but it's certain there are models made by them I don't know about.

 

I've seen similar bridges (with the dots in the corners of the belly, below the pins) on some other Matsumoko-made guitars, too, though they made many models under various names (including Aria) for thier clients. On the other hand, the various Japanese manufacturers are said to have often sourced parts from the same suppliers, so you can't identify the manufacturer by just a part. I've not seen a bridge like that on a Gibson that I can recall. Maybe someone here has.

 

Bottom line: I don't know what that guitar is. Sorry I can't be of more more help.

 

Red 333