onewilyfool Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 1. Just wanting to clear up some confusion. How does scale length affect the tension on a guitar string? Longer the scale length MORE or LESS tension vrs shorter scale length? 2. Can you use open tunings on short scale or 12 fret guitars? I see most "open tuning" guys using long scale or even baritone guitars. Why is that??? Does short scale not lend itself to open tunings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 1. Two strings with the same pitch and different lengths, the longer one will have higher tension. 2. I think it's coincidence. I don't think the scale length would make much difference. If you go to a lower pitch on a shorter scale guitar you run the risk of the string being too loose and floppy but I doubt that dictates which guitar to use from Square One. Edit: Other factors can affect tension as well, such as the 'dead' string section on an archtop between the bridge and tailpiece, the angle of the headstock, the break angle behind the saddle, the length of the headstock, etc. This is my belief and observation although I don't have the background in physics to prove it and it has been controvertial in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 1. Just wanting to clear up some confusion. How does scale length affect the tension on a guitar string? Longer the scale length MORE or LESS tension vrs shorter scale length? Wily' date=' You already know the answer to this one, at least implicitly. As you know from fretting strings, shortening the scale produces a higher note. As you know from tuning, decreasing string tension produces a lower note. So, if a shorter scale guitar produces the same note, it must be due to lower string tension (all else being equal). 2. Can you use open tunings on short scale or 12 fret guitars? I see most "open tuning" guys using long scale or even baritone guitars. Why is that??? Does short scale not lend itself to open tunings? Open tunings are typically produced by tuning down. Having a longer scale helps keep the string tension up in the range where the guitar functions properly. That said, you certainly can play in open tunings on a short scale guitar. Going to heavier gauge strings will help -- as you know, the bigger the string diameter, the lower the note it produces (all else being equal). (The number of frets clear of the body is, of course, irrelevant.) -- Professor Bob, Engineering Division, Santa Clara University Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 I read once about an experiment that famous archtop maker Robert Benedetto did. If I recall correctly, he built a guitar neck that had a different scale length (or speaking length) for every string, between 23" and 26." He strung it with six of the same guage strings from the same manufacturer and tuned each to the same pitch. Even though the string swith the longer scale length were undoubtedly under higher tension, no one could feel much of a difference in taughtness or elasticity between the strings. Of course, the results might have felt different to the testers if they could give their impressions using six strings, not just one, but who knows. As an aside, I have his book about archtop building, and he definitely states that he believes that the length of the string between the saddle and the tailpiece (non-speaking length) has no effect on tension (though others certainly believe otherwise). I will try to find the other article, about speaking length and tension. In general, though, many builders have historically believed or been under the assumption that that strings are under more tension when the scale is longer, and will drive the top more, producing more volume. But as ksdaddy pointed out, many factors effect how taught or bendable the strings feel, including how big or small the string core is (a larger core will feel tighter), how thick or thin the corresponsing winding is, what materials they are made from; how well the nut is made, etc. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 Other factors can affect tension as well' date=' such as the 'dead' string section on an archtop between the bridge and tailpiece, the angle of the headstock, the break angle behind the saddle, the length of the headstock, etc. This is my belief and observation although I don't have the background in physics to prove it and it has been controvertial in the past.[/quote'] I think the controversy stems from the fact that a string that is harder to fret is quite naturally perceived as being at higher tension -- it pushes back on your fingertip harder when you press it down, just exactly as a string at higher tension does -- but tension is just one of many factors that affect this. E.g., round core strings are easier to fret because there's less friction between the windings and the core, hence there is less elastic deformation of the windings when you fret the string. Generally, part of the energy required to fret a string goes to overcoming string tension, part to overcoming the resistance to bending ("elastic deformation") inherent in the material, part to overcoming friction of the string in the nut slot (see below), etc., etc. Many of the effects that you have observed can be attributed to propagation of the elastic deformation. E.g., a steeper break angle behind the nut tends to reduce the propagation of the elastic deformation of the string to the region between the nut and the tuners, which makes the string push back harder. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 So probably what I've noticed has little to do with the extra (excess) string length as it affects (or doesn't affect) tension but my perception is that the guitar feels stiffer because of the elastic deformation. I may not be able to explain is scientifically but 25+ years ago a customer said a Hondo Les Paul copy I was selling felt stiff. I raised the stop tailpiece a couple screw turns (decreasing the break angle) and he ended up buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnt Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Just to stop you fretting ( pardon pun) Wily. Therm is 100% fine, sounding outrageous as usual on his Sherry and well occupied elsewhere. He is more of a 1960s valve amp man these days. We did speak of happier days on the forum and I think we both agree that todays forum is a tad too "collector orientated" for old rockers like Therm and (to a much lesser extent) ..me ( I will wait for fist to descend but it is what I believe and I am entitled to my two penneth!).............> LOL! I think we both believe, that cases are something whioch pretty lady lawyers dress up for and humidifiers are best kept for fine cigars!! He did send regards though! His area of East Anglia is rockin as ever!!!! Regretably when we last met 2 weeks ago the red wine got my fingers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 Just to stop you fretting ( pardon pun) Wily. Therm is 100% fine' date=' sounding outrageous as usual on his Sherry and well occupied elsewhere. He is more of a 1960s valve amp man these days. We did speak of happier days on the forum and I think we both agree that todays forum is a tad too "collector orientated" for old rockers like Therm and (to a much lesser extent) ..me ( I will wait for fist to descend but it is what I believe and I am entitled to my two penneth!).............> LOL! I think we both believe, that cases are something whioch pretty lady lawyers dress up for and humidifiers are best kept for fine cigars!! He did send regards though! His area of East Anglia is rockin as ever!!!! Regretably when we last met 2 weeks ago the red wine got my fingers!! [/quote'] Good to hear Johnt. VERY bad pun by the way...lol. I know that Therm could probably have given us formulas and calculations to straighten this all out....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnt Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Good to hear Johnt. VERY bad pun by the way...lol. I know that Therm could probably have given us formulas and calculations to straighten this all out....lol. Sent Ya a PM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnt Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Good to hear Johnt. VERY bad pun by the way...lol. I know that Therm could probably have given us formulas and calculations to straighten this all out....lol. Sent Ya a PM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertjohn Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 I miss the physics lessons too. Can't say I understood them all but I always enjoyed reading them. Nik, you're missed here mate. Hope you are well. From one of the many non-collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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