A great line

[Suho]

Amen.

 

Except sometimes I do sell them, and then buy more.

 

[wedgeSG]

Double-Ditto to what MI_Canuck and tulsaslim said. I like modding and rescuing old Epis. Won't ever see the point of spending what it would cost to bring an entry-level Gibson up to what I would ultimately want in a Gibson nor could I ever afford one at that price point. I have some Epi's that I've spent as much on as some entry level Gibsons, that will never come near of recouping the total invested. But they were upgraded over time, (easier to afford that way), and I don't have any intention of selling one once I get it the way I want it. Actually, I'm noticing a trend of late on Ebay: that nicely modified Epi's are actually starting to bring in more bucks and bidders than they have in the past. If the ad is written to play up the mods, (of actual tone improvements or MAJOR cosmetics), watch the activity those will generate. I get it all the time "my gosh, you spent what!?!, why didn't you just BUY a Gibson?". It's difficult and tiresome trying to inform someone as to the method behind your madness. But those on this forum know all too well that few things are more deeply satisfing than a well planned sleeper. When your tone, (not even talking about talent here), mirrors or even surpasses the four-figure American-made owners axe... your Epi has said volumes and you needent utter a word. Unless given the chance; "Man that sounds better than my $_K ________!" Just smile and say "Yeah, I know"

Wedgie

[Notes_Norton]

My partner, Leilani plays a Parker PM-10.

 

About a year and a half ago (before I bought my Casino) we were playing in a lounge, and a guitarist I played on a CD with but never met came in (my sax was ear candy recorded over the top). We traded a few stories and then while talking to Leilani, looked down his nose and told her he would never play anything but a Gibson.

 

I don't know if any of you ever played a Parker PM-10, but the neck is excellent (easier to play than either my Casino or ES), the LP-ish body is molded to fit against the player's body and much lighter than a real LP (about 7lbs), and the push-pull coil taps and Parker pickups give a wide range of beautiful tones (although the single-coil setting isn't quite as nice as the P90 sound for my tastes). The guitar is so well made that it looks like it was cut from a single piece of wood - you cannot see a seam between the neck and the body.

 

Leilani told him she plays the Parker because she likes the way it sounds and the way it plays. That exchange pretty much ended our conversation, although on subsequent visits, we did engage in a little social small talk.

 

While that guitarist is an excellent player, he has lost some of my respect as a person (we will probably never become good friends).

 

When you are on stage, do not be embarrassed to play an Epi, Dan-o, Silvertone, Focus, Squier, or a no-name guitar. Be proud of what you are playing, and how you play it. It's all about the music, not the name on the headstock.

 

On the other hand, if you have both the cash and the desire to buy a top-of-the-line Gibson, Fender or whatever, drive a Lexus or Benz, wear Armani suits on stage, and tote your guitar in a fine leather case, go ahead. Just don't judge other people's talents by the guitar they play.

 

If anybody comes up to dis my Casino, I will not tell them about the $5k Gibson I have at home.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[MI_Canuck]

case in point... need look no further than the Gibson boards...

 

see the reply a few posts down... the guy saying he would NEVER buy an Epiphone... lol

 

http://forums.gibson.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=662

 

 

 

peace

[Lerxst1281733995]

You know, part of the stigma is that (as TulsaSlim pointed out) a lot of us came up in a time when anything made outside the U.S. was pure dumpster-fodder... A time when "MIJ" meant "POS".. Then, after a while, some Japanese guitars were "ok", but you wouldn't touch a Korean or Indonesian made instrument with a barge-pole...

 

I have to admit, I held the same mind-set years ago... I was an Epi basher... Not that I owned a Gibson or anything, I just wouldn't even CONSIDER a Korean made guitar, no matter what.. I never had headstock envy or cared what people in the audience thought (I played Yamaha and Ibanez back in the '80s). I just didn't think they were quality guitars, based soley on the fact thet they were MIK.. Blind ignorance you might call it... But bear in mind, I still had recent memories of playing some no-name, plywood piece of crap from Japan, with no truss rod and terrible everything to jaundice my opinon.. And I don't think Epiphone was producing the calibre of guitars back then, that they are now..

 

But then, somewhere along the line, something happened... The price of Gibsons seemed to double overnight.. I seem to remember when a Gibson LP could be had for about $800.. And even that was a lot of money back then.. The next thing I know, you can't touch one for less than $1,600 and the prices just kept going up!

 

Now, I've heard all the rationales behind the price jump from new management/ownership to something in the water in Nashville, and everything in between... But none of it really seemed to make any sense.. And nobody seemed to be complaining about it too much.... Never mind the fact that the other major American guitar maker's prices were staying relatively stable.. So, from that point on, I turned sour on Gibson.. I swore I would never buy one..

 

As time wore on, the quality of Korean guitars got better, I've long lost interest in Japanese brands, (I still have an old Ibanez guitar and bass, but I never play them..) and a top of the line Epiphone LP custom retails for what a Gibson LP standard did back in 1985.. I've mellowed a bit in my anti-Gibson stance.. I'd buy one, if I could afford it and I really wanted it.. Not to impress my friends... Not as an "investment"... (I think those days are over anyway, with today's levels of mass production..) But because it speaks to me.... That's the only reason I ever bought any guitar...

[Notes_Norton]

Some people buy instruments to be collectors items. Some people buy instruments to be tools. Some people buy tools that happen to be collectors items.

 

I've owned a few saxophones that are now collectors items. I wore them out until they were no longer able to be put back in prime playing order, then traded them in on something new. I use my instruments on the gig and I gig for a living. I play hard, and although I maintain them well, I often play them too long between intervals in the repair shop for complete overhauls (the overhaul puts the sax out of service for a month or more).

 

I remember buying a brand new H.Couf Superba tenor. The sound was great. The action was great. The intonation was as good as I've ever seen on a sax. Normally I kept my tenor, alto and flute on a stand in the front of the stage by the microphone. Since my Couf was brand new, without a single blemish, during the break I decided to move the saxes away from the front of the stage and placed them in front of the drums. Well, the first weekend, wouldn't you know it, some drunk on the dance floor fell against the stage, toppled the microphone stand, and where did it land? Right on my shiny new sax -- put a crease down the body that never did completely come out at the repair shop. That messed up the intonation so I had to "lip" certain notes to keep them in tune.

 

Now I purchase "2nd tier" saxophones for about half the price of new ones (and 90% of the quality) - since I am going to get them banged up and wear them out anyway. The Grassi Prestige I am now playing is the sax equivalent of an Epiphone guitar.

 

My Gibson ES-330 became a collectors item while I wasn't looking. I paid $300 for it in the early '80's (I think). I played it a while on stage, then got interested in wind synthesis with a Yamaha WX7, later WX11, and now a WX5 Wind MIDI controllers with various synth modules, now using the Yamaha VL70m Physical Modeling Synth Module (you can even hear a clip of me playing "synth guitar" on the WX/VL at http://www.nortonmusic.com/clips.html (two sax emulations and a guitar emulation). While I realize that it isn't 100% guitar, it is still a good emulation for a synthesizer.

 

Well, the WX/VL has become a big part of my voice on stage, and although I haven't mastered it yet (haven't mastered anything), I am definitely comfortable with it and well past the point of exploration. So I was looking for something new. I rekindled my interest in guitar (I had played bass a few years and doubled on rhythm in a few bands I was in in the 70-90s). By then my ES was worth too much money to be banged around on stage so I bought a Kramer/Focus/Faux-Strat guitar. It sounded pretty good, but not as good as my ES -- but then it was a less than $100 guitar so I didn't expect greatness out of it.

 

I did discover that I really don't like the Fender-Shaped neck. It just didn't fit my hands like the slim Gibson neck. Something about the thicker neck and the curved fretboard and me didn't agree. Funny though -- when playing bass, I prefer a Fender P or J bass.

 

So I got what would be what I though to be the closest thing to my ES-330 currently in production, the Casino. I traded in the Kramer (got out what I put into it) and am VERY happy with the Casino. I've put in a couple of hours per day practice since the middle of last summer, and am playing lead on 30 or so songs now. Not up to Joe Pass or Hendrix skills, but good enough for Rock/R&B/C&W songs. I actually surprised myself on how quickly I picked it up. I suppose those years on the bass prepared me for single notes on the fretboard.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Prospero]

So... a question for those of you who gig regularly with your Epis:

 

What's the life span of your guitar?

 

As someone who's new to the instrument, and who does not intend to gig in any way, shape or form, I'm expecting my guitars to outlive me. But those of you who take them out and play them in public, how long does an Epi last in your hands?

[tulsaslim]

I can't speak for epis, but when I was doing full-time road gigs I couldn't get 4 years out of a Gibson LP.

[Prospero]

I can't speak for epis' date=' but when I was doing full-time road gigs I couldn't get 4 years out of a Gibson LP.[/quote']

 

How does Neil Young keep this friggin' thing alive?!

[Lerxst1281733995]

So... a question for those of you who gig regularly with your Epis:

 

What's the life span of your guitar?

 

As someone who's new to the instrument' date=' and who does not intend to gig in any way, shape or form, I'm expecting my guitars to outlive me. But those of you who take them out and play them in public, how long does an Epi last in your hands?[/quote']

 

That's kind of an impossible question to answer... Depends on how well you take care of your guitar.. There are certain inevitabilities... You're gonna knock it into things (mike stands, etc..) You're gonna drop it... If you lean it against your amp, it will fall down from time to time... In my experience, though, the carelessness of fellow band members has always been the biggest threat to my guitars...

 

None of those things will necessarily kill your guitar, though... Even if your headstock snaps off, you can have it glued back on as good as new (or better) as long as it's a clean break.. What'll kill your guitar is massive trauma to the neck, (like an amp falling on it), broken truss-rod, or a rod that's run out of travel.. Unless it's a bolt-on, then you can just replace the neck..

 

Oh, and if you light your guitar on fire...... That'll pretty much kill it too... But short of utterly demolishing your guitar, you can pretty much fix most of the things that'll happen to it.. Just depends on how far you want to go to fix it..

 

Look at Willie Nelson... He's been playing that same Martin since the Bronze Age... He's worn a big hole in it, but otherwise, it still plays... How many repairs do ya thing THAT thing's had?

[garyelcrrt1281733995]

Some people might think Willie plays that guitar because its the only guitar IRS will let him have, but the truth is, he is sly and rubbing their noses in it because nobody ever mentioned the collector value of that guitar. If IRS had a clue, they'd buy him a brand new Martin and put that one up for auction to collect some of those back taxes.

[tulsaslim]

Yeah, Neil's 'Old Black' just keeps going, doesn't it? I do know (from stuff I've read) that he's had some serious work done on it at various times.

 

For me, when I was on the road, I think it was the outdoor gigs that did my LPs in. I've played in snow, rain, wind storms, blistering heat, etc. (not to mention getting banged around in the back of the bus). And you're right about bandmates. They don't do it on purpose but they've definitely contributed to my guitars' demise.

 

And I'm sure many of you have had the same experience of some drunk inviting himself on stage while you were taking a break and playing your guitar (something that pissed me off more than anything else).

 

And no matter how obsessive one becomes when it comes to protecting your guitar, it's inevitable that 'sh*t happens'.

[Dave]

Last I looked, the Gibson LP Studio was going for around $1200 on the street. My wife bought mine (with my urging) for $525 back in '92 for Christmas. There was a sale going on and all you could get was white with gold trim or Wine with gold trim. Mine is Wine. It's been out of the house only a few times. I could probably get close to $1000 for it if I were lucky. That's nearly double what I paid for it.

 

That said, I value my Epi custom plus flametop more than the Gibby, as I've said several times here. It just feels right and sounds incredible, after much modding. I gig with it constantly and it gets many oohs and aahs.

 

People who don't play really don't care what the brand name is. And, they don't know the intricasies of guitar playing. A guy came up to me after a gig lately and said, "Man, I really enjoy listening to you play guitar. What is that you play? Lead? I could listen to you play all night." Made my head swell, but he had no idea what I was doing or what I was doing it on. He just liked the sound.

[tulsaslim]

"case in point... need look no further than the Gibson boards...

 

see the reply a few posts down... the guy saying he would NEVER buy an Epiphone... lol"

 

 

 

Did you notice that the posters who ragged on Epis the most described themselves as 'novices' or 'beginners'? That is a common thread over there. You get a bunch of kids who are so insecure about their abilities that they think a $3000 guitar is gonna make them a better player. The old "I can't play for sh*t but at least I've got a better guitar than you" syndrome.

 

That's why I don't lurk over there too much anymore. I do enjoy the sensible posts some of the old guys write but I quickly run out of patience listening to those kids (who don't know a damn thing about guitars IMO) pontificating about how great their Gibsons are and how crappy Epis are.

 

However, I think even Gibby understands that if you take the clueless kids and the old guys with more money than sense out of the equation, Gibson sales will be way down.

 

This topic has never been 'sour grapes' for me as I own 3 Gibsons myself & (please don't take this wrong) I can afford any Gibson out there if I desired. I like Gibbys but the only one's I'll buy anymore are the one's that don't have an Epi counterpart e.g. my LP DC Pro. The next Gibby I'm apt to buy is a 339, but if Epi comes out with their own version of it I'll buy the Epi.

[Notes_Norton]

So... a question for those of you who gig regularly with your Epis:

 

What's the life span of your guitar?

<...>

 

As others have mentioned, it depends. Things happen on stage - which is why I leave my ES at home and take my Casino to the gig.

 

Other factors not mentioned is the type of music you play and where you gig.

 

If you are playing a jazz or easy listening gig in a restaurant on a stage not in a location where accidents are likely to happen, your guitar can outlive you. But of course, depending on how old you are, you might get GAS and get new gear anyway. After all, some guitars are made better than the ones we played in the 1960s - necks, truss rods, and pickup technology have improved.

 

If you are playing heavy metal or some kind of theatric music where you or somebody else jumps all over the stage, you can bet on an accident sooner or later.

 

How many instruments you play can also be a factor. I have found the instrument is most vulnerable either on the stand or or being put on or off the stand. When it is in your hands, it is usually safe and sound.

 

But even if you play rock, jump all over the stage and have a half dozen guitars out there, you can still beat the odds and have the guitar outlive you.

 

For me, it's buy the tool, use the tool until it becomes a problem, and then thank it for its service and trade it in.