Dave Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 My worry is that once China joins the rest of the free world economically and every family has two cars, the smog cloud will be visible from Saturn. There's only so much wealth to distribute and we are sending most of ours overseas... Far too many jobs have gone outside our borders and the manufacturing capability of America has dwindled to the point that we are as dependent upon offshore manufacturing vendors as we are on offshore oil suppliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captmidnight Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 ok....here is my 2 cents worth...My wife always says I need to wait and get my change back...lol China can't be any worse than Mexico. For that matter any 3rd world country that The good old US-of-A has taken jobs away from us to ship them overseas (or acrossed the border) to get it made for as cheap as they can. I love this country! but we sure do a crappy job of trying to keep our own people working. Don't think there isn't sweat shops still running here in America just like in other countries...they are just well hidden. Still ever few months you hear about one getting busted for underage workers and sub par working conditions and lower than minimum wages being paid. We allow aliens to cross our border so we can hire the cheapest labor for the worst jobs because "we" don't want to have to do "that kind of work" GRRRRRRRRR We are all guilty of letting this happen...not that we do it intentionally, but by necessity most of the time because the normal working person here in the USA just can't afford to buy all "Made in the USA" products. OK...got My blind fold on and standing at the wall.....fire away! Captmidnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulsaslim Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 This being an election year and all, many of the arguments on this thread remind me of some of the campaign-type speeches. Yep, China has a record of human rights violations so somebody is going to say the Epi factory employs slave labor. I doubt that very much as the factory is owned by Epi and I'm confident the workers are treated pretty well by Chinese standards. Yep, it's hard to read anything 'bad' about any guitar in a guitar magazine unless you 'read between the lines'. If the author finds something bad he will sneak a comment somewhere in the article that will appear harmless in context but those of us who understand the 'secret code' will get the point. They have a way of informing the readers about their 'concerns' without actually trashing the product but a knowledgable reader can read between the lines. If you don't believe what I'm saying, then read the review of the Gibson Robot Guitar in the same issue. It's pretty apprarent that the author has some issues with it but he writes about them in a totally 'politically correct' way as to not offend Gibson but still get his point across. For instance, he points out that of the three Robots he tried out only one of them worked correctly. If you don't understand what he's trying to tell you than you haven't read too many of these rags. I think what Jerry was trying to say is that the article points out that the Chinese factories have come a long way since they first went on line a couple of years ago. They are moving steadily up the 'learning curve' and are now making guitars on a par with what the Korean models were when they moved production to China. I think the main point of the article (I read it, too) was to say that the Asian-made guitars continue to get better all the time & I agree with that. I'm starting to Jones for one of those Ultra IIs, and I am very satisfied with the Chinese-made Epis I own already. I don't have any facts to back up my claim but I strongly suspect that Epi money has been floating the Gibson ship for quite some time. And Rosenberg has done a tremendous job of upgrading the reputation of the Epi brand since he's been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokestack Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Quite agree . A very balanced a sensible view from slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benniator1281733997 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Some of you may ***** about Chinese sweatshops and human rights violations, but how many times can we truly say that blood, sweat and tears really went into a guitar we purchased? So the Chinese economic machine's gears are greased with the blood of the worker...no economic system is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 ... you don't want to address that preferring to mis-state what I said- which was nothing about Gibson specifically using child labor but why don't you state categorically that child labor isn't used and exploited in Communist China? I'm not going to let you back pedal and shift the blame on me. You're the one who took a enjoyable little thread about articles in a magazine and injected nonsense into it. You clearly tied Gibson to child labor' date=' and now you're trying to weasel out of it by saying that you didn't [i']specifically[/i] say that. Well, let's look at you're exact words: What do you think they're going to say about a cash cow like Gibson/Epiphone? That the company is in with the oppressive, totalitarian, Chinese Communist government to hire and exploit Chinese citizens (many of them kids) and pay them twenty dollars a week to make guitars in some hideous factory in a country where there's little concern about ethical, environmental or human rights concerns ? I challenged you to back up that statement with proof, you're response is to deny you ever said that. Unbelievable. I will address the rest of your nonsense later, but for now I think it's important that you address this very serious allegation you made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 ok....here is my 2 cents worth...My wife always says I need to wait and get my change back...lol China can't be any worse than Mexico. For that matter any 3rd world country that The good old US-of-A has taken jobs away from us to ship them overseas (or acrossed the border) to get it made for as cheap as they can. I love this country! but we sure do a crappy job of trying to keep our own people working. Don't think there isn't sweat shops still running here in America just like in other countries...they are just well hidden. Still ever few months you hear about one getting busted for underage workers and sub par working conditions and lower than minimum wages being paid. We allow aliens to cross our border so we can hire the cheapest labor for the worst jobs because "we" don't want to have to do "that kind of work" GRRRRRRRRR We are all guilty of letting this happen...not that we do it intentionally' date=' but by necessity most of the time because the normal working person here in the USA just can't afford to buy all "Made in the USA" products. OK...got My blind fold on and standing at the wall.....fire away! Captmidnight[/quote'] Take the blindfold off, no fire from here. About 30 years ago. I was sitting in a darkened room and I heard these words: You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and ITT and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state -- Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality -- one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock, all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. I didn't fully appreciate back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripweed Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 A large number of the folks around here buy Epiphone Guitars because they can't afford Gibsons...or the luxury of taking the high moral ground with regard to these issues. Amen. Come on guys, lighten up. Its all about guitars. Put a couple of pics of hot chicks and we'll all be pleased as punch. I'm here to talk about Epi guitars and have some fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Amen. Come on guys' date=' lighten up. Its all about guitars. [b']Put a couple of pics of hot chicks[/b] and we'll all be pleased as punch. I'm here to talk about Epi guitars and have some fun. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superjudge3 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Don't get me wrong, I'm not a prude, but I do NOT buy guitar magazines to look a hot girls holding guitars. Its just stupid! It's not a car magazine, a GUITAR magazine right? I love hot women as much as the next guy, but I'm so sick of seeing pin-up girls in "guitar" magazines!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Well, he meant this thread and with the detour it took from it's original intent...It's not a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matiac Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 How 'bout them Giants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 Amen. Come on guys' date=' lighten up. Its all about guitars. Put a couple of pics of hot chicks and we'll all be pleased as punch. I'm here to talk about Epi guitars and have some fun.[/quote'] OK. I started this thread simply to let you guys know about the Epiphone articles. There was no controversy until someone decided to inject nonsense about child labor and human rights violations and Nazis into a rather enjoyable thread. Plus he made it personal by calling me naive. I won't post again unless this person continues his rants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Jerry you are to blame... for making me hungry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 OK. I started this thread simply to let you guys know about the Epiphone articles. There was no controversy until someone decided to inject nonsense about child labor and human rights violations and Nazis into a rather enjoyable thread. Plus he made it personal by calling me naive. I won't post again unless this person continues his rants. Here's a new flash. I don't really find very much about you or anything you've had to say interesting, intelligent or thought provoking enough to continue with any further discussion so yeah, thread's over on my part too.. My points were purposely avoided through focusing on my child labor/ Nazi camp statements because the actuality here is that China is a place where people are exported so Americans can have a lot of cheap stuff to make themselves feel good about not having any actual prosperity. But Jerry likes those cheap guitars and he doesn't want to admit that there could be any socio-economic ramifications over his supporting the government and corporate system that allows him to own a lot of cheap stuff and achieve the big fish/little pond status he so deserves for his efforts. You are an idiot if you think the conditions I've described in China don't exist but I understand that if I was all goo goo about some Chinese product I'd probably be in denial as well about the realities. Have a great day. Happy pawn shopping. ...and Al's your uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I started this thread simply to let you guys know about the Epiphone articles. There was no controversy until someone decided to inject nonsense about child labor and human rights violations and Nazis into a rather enjoyable thread. Plus he made it personal by calling me naive. I won't post again unless this person continues his rants. Here's a new flash. I don't really find very much about you or anything you've had to say here interesting, intelligent or thought provoking enough to continue with any further discussion so yeah, thread's over on my part too.. My points were purposely avoided through focusing on my child labor/ Nazi camp statements because the actuality here is that China is a place where people are exploited so Americans can have a lot of cheap stuff to make themselves feel good and have a false sense of material possession without having any actual prosperity. But Jerry likes those cheap guitars and he doesn't want to admit that there could be any socio-economic ramifications over his supporting the government and corporate system that allows him to own a lot of cheap stuff and achieve the big fish/little pond status he so deserves for his efforts. You are an idiot if you think the conditions I've described in China don't exist but I understand that if I was all goo goo about some Chinese product I'd probably be in denial as well about the realities. Have a great day. Happy pawn shopping. ...and Al's your uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 But Jerry likes those cheap guitars and he doesn't want to admit that there could be any socio-economic ramifications over his supporting the government and corporate system that allows him to own a lot of cheap stuff and achieve the big fish/little pond status he so deserves for his efforts. You are an idiot if you think the conditions I've described in China don't exist but I understand that if I was all goo goo about some Chinese product I'd probably be in denial as well about the realities. More ad hominum attacks' date=' still no evidence backing up his outrageous claims. Here's [i']some[/i] of my cheap stuff that I own: Those cheap guitars from China sure look nice, don't they??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyelcrrt1281733995 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 How 'bout them Giants? Oh, you meant the NEW YORK Giants. Well, one of the two teams pretty much had to win, so it might as well have been a team with a good name. Live From San Francisco Bay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matiac Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Gary, I was just trying to cut through the tension there, and Jerry, are all those Guilds you have from Westerly R.I.? The old factories right down the street from my house, the guy that does all the work on my stuff used to work there. That's quite the collection you have there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Seriously those guitars are gorgeous Jerry...Adopt me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 More ad hominum attacks, still no evidence backing up his outrageous claims. Outrageous claims?...that China is an oppressed society and its government has numerous substantiated human rights violations?...need evidence? I guess you haven't read anything lately that doesn't have guitar pictures in it.(well, *that* may have been an ad hominum attack but what the hell)..as I said...happy pawn shopping-sorry, there's nothing there that makes my pin wheel spin or that I don't already own or have owned and dumped off. Maybe impressive to the Epi Kiddies but it looks like the second and third tier pawn shop prize stuff that I used to take to guitar shows to sell to people who wanted to pretend they were *vintage* collectors. Lots of you out there making those prices go up and up which I have no problem with because I enjoy making money and it's really easy when *everything* becomes a collector's item and every body is a collector and vintage expert. I really did think it was tacky when you first showed up here and would actually quote verbatim from my previous posts (without credit of course) about things like those Matsumoku Epiphones..and now I'm the one who's without a clue. Cute. That wasn't intended as any kind of ad hominum attack-that was just something I always wanted to mention to you. No, it didn't get past me but it did increase your street cred around here so perhaps a little humility on your part is in order. Not that *that* would ever happen. It also isn't an ad hominum attack when it goes to the fallacy of your argument- you can't be objective about anything when your position is based in personal, subjective perspective- that you can't be against dog fighting when you have a dog in the fight. Have a great day-and again...Do you think we are to believe everything we read in guitar magazines as objective, fact-based journalism? This whole thing is sooo last week's news...I'm outta here. ...and Al's your uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 Gary' date=' I was just trying to cut through the tension there, and Jerry, are all those Guilds you have from Westerly R.I.? The old factories right down the street from my house, the guy that does all the work on my stuff used to work there. That's quite the collection you have there.[/quote'] Thanks!!! The Bluesbird and the Acorn guitar are Rhodies. The SF-XII & Polara are Hoboken, the Aristocrat is NYC. Some great guitars came out of that old Westerly factory. Almost as good as Qingdao, ha!!! Gotta go, Uncle Al is calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Thanks!!! The Bluesbird and the Acorn guitar are Rhodies. The SF-XII & Polara are Hoboken' date=' the Aristocrat is NYC. Some great guitars came out of that old Westerly factory. Almost as good as Qingdao, ha!!! Gotta go, Uncle Al is calling. [/quote'] Save it-this thread is over as far as I'm concerned. You and this topic has exhausted all of my allotted time for the ridiculous and delusional. Post some more pictures or something- Maybe some close ups of "The Monkey Nuts Guitar" that's what we used to call those Guild acorn jobbies- Some other life perhaps. ...and Al's your uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 8, 2008 Author Share Posted February 8, 2008 Outrageous claims?...that China is an oppressed society and its government has numerous substantiated human rights violations?...need evidence? I'm not going to let you get away with it. You implicated Gibson and we'll quote you one more time: What do you think they're going to say about a cash cow like Gibson/Epiphone? That the company is in with the oppressive' date=' totalitarian, Chinese Communist government to hire and exploit Chinese citizens (many of them kids) and pay them twenty dollars a week to make guitars in some hideous factory in a country where there's little concern about ethical, environmental or human rights concerns ?[/i'] I know you're not to offer any real evidence that Gibson/Epiphone "...is in with the oppressive, totalitarian, Chinese Communist government to hire and exploit Chinese citizens (many of them kids) and pay them twenty dollars a week to make guitars in some hideous factory." A lesser mind will always resort to insults when lacking facts to back their argument. sorry' date=' there's nothing there that makes my pin wheel spin or that I don't already own or have owned and dumped off. Maybe impressive to the Epi Kiddies but it looks like the second and third tier pawn shop prize stuff that I used to take to guitar shows to sell to people who wanted to pretend they were *vintage* collectors. Lots of you out there making those prices go up and up which I have no problem with because I enjoy making money and it's really easy when *everything* becomes a collector's item and every body is a collector and vintage expert. [/quote'] Your last post, you accused me of liking "...those cheap guitars and he doesn't want to admit that there could be any socio-economic ramifications over his supporting the government and corporate system that allows him to own a lot of cheap stuff and achieve the big fish/little pond status he so deserves for his efforts." Now you accuse me of being a *vintage* collector who buys his stuff from Pawn Shops. Which is it??? I guess you just make stuff up in lieu of having anything substantive to say. You know how you could have really showed me up??? You could have posted some photos of your guitars, you know the ones that put my "...second and third tier pawn shop prize stuff..." to shame. And if Gibson is guilty of all these human rights violations, how can you justify buying a USA Gibson??? If I were you, and thank God I'm not, I would burn them in protest. BTW, why do even bother associating with the "Epi Kiddies" on this forum since you obviously have so much disdain for them??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benniator1281733997 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 *grabs popcorn* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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