frenchie1281734003 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I`ve been going through back issues of Guitar & Bass Magazine(UK),and in the October 2006 issue Vol 17/8,there is an article by Paul Batey on vintage Gibson 335`s and their alternatives,in which he states on page 25,"For detail freaks,there`s another fine difference:whereas the 330 was built with three-ply laminated back and front,the Casino was built with five-ply.Casino`s also often have narrower nuts than 330`s of the same year".Now i`m aware of the last statement being based on fact,but i thought both the Casino and 330 were five-ply bodies!.I sometimes get access to a 64 Red 330,but it will be sometime before i can get a chance to check again.Maybe Uncle Al can shed some light on this?.Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I`ve been going through back issues of Guitar & Bass Magazine(UK)' date='and in the October 2006 issue Vol 17/8,there is an article by Paul Batey on vintage Gibson 335`s and their alternatives,in which he states on page 25,"For detail freaks,there`s another fine difference:whereas the 330 was built with three-ply laminated back and front,the Casino was built with five-ply.Casino`s also often have narrower nuts than 330`s of the same year".Now i`m aware of the last statement being based on fact,but i thought both the Casino and 330 were five-ply bodies!.I sometimes get access to a 64 Red 330,but it will be sometime before i can get a chance to check again.Maybe Uncle Al can shed some light on this?.Thanks in advance.[/quote'] I don't have an ES-330 from that era to compare the number of plys but I'd be willing to bet that Gibson didn't confuse the manufacturing issues any more than they had to by having two different bodies for two very similar guitars though then again, the neck joints are slightly different so who knows? I will attest that the mid 60's Casino's nuts are EXTREMELY narrow (1 5/8") and again I don't have an ES-330 to compare but the mid 60's are known for a being time of very thin and narrow Gibson necks so it stands to the reason that the ES-330 would follow that trend. I'll have to pass on the plys question and maybe someone with an ES-330 can count theirs. By the way, the ES-330/Casinos were never intended to be alternatives to an ES-335. The ES-330/Casino was intended as the entry level of full hollow thin lines replacing the ES-225. ...and Al's your uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notes_Norton Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I have both an ES-330 and a Casino. The 330 was made in the 'zoo in 1970 and the Casino in the Peerless plant in 2001. I cannot verify the number of plies on my Casino because they have been covered in black paint. The ES-330 does have a 3 ply top though. The nut is a little slimmer on the 330. Not a significant difference though, I just assumed it was the difference between using US and Metric measurements (definitely a guess on my part). However, my fingers do know the difference when I have been playing the Casino for a long stretch without picking up the Gibson. Acoustically the Gibson sounds better. The tone is richer and more mellow. I'm not sure why as I don't know that much about guitar building theory, but here are my guesses (1) different wood (2) different number of plies (3) different finish (4) nylon/plastic (?) saddles (5) neck joining at a higher fret resulting in the bridge being set higher on the body of the guitar (see photo below). When plugged in, the Casino sounds brighter, louder and has a bit more sustain. Again more guesses (1) metal (nickel?) saddles (2) the pups on the Casino are adjusted somewhat higher than on the Gibson (something I plan to attend to when the winter gigging season in Florida is over). Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Thanks Uncle Al and Notes Norton,for the informed responses.So if Notes ES330 is a three-ply body,then that`s a fact now proved.I do know that the Kalamazoo Casino`s,as well as the Lennon reissues are five-ply Maple & Birch,the Matsumoku`s,Terada Elitists and pre-Elitist models are five-ply Maple,and the Korean Casino`s are either three-ply Spuce or Maple.However i would like Uncle Al to explain what he means about the neck joints being slightly different between the Kalamazoo made Casino and ES330,i thought they both joined at the 16th fret(apart from the 19th fret long necks),or is it something more subtle.On the Matsumoku Casino`s the neck doesn`t lean away from the body quite as much as on the other versions,which is actually quite beneficial,it means the bridge isn`t so high,that another thumb wheel would fit underneath it, for added support,and also,the bridge pickup is closer to the strings,so it reduces a lot of the pickup inbalance found on other versions,and ES330`s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Thanks Uncle Al and Notes Norton' date='for the informed responses.So if Notes ES330 is a three-ply body,then that`s a fact now proved.I do know that the Kalamazoo Casino`s,as well as the Lennon reissues are five-ply Maple & Birch,the Matsumoku`s,Terada Elitists and pre-Elitist models are five-ply Maple,and the Korean Casino`s are either three-ply Spuce or Maple.However i would like Uncle Al to explain what he means about the neck joints being slightly different between the Kalamazoo made Casino and ES330,i thought they both joined at the 16th fret(apart from the 19th fret long necks),or is it something more subtle.On the Matsumoku Casino`s the neck doesn`t lean away from the body quite as much as on the other versions,which is actually quite beneficial,it means the bridge isn`t so high,that another thumb wheel would fit underneath it, for added support,and also,the bridge pickup is closer to the strings,so it reduces a lot of the pickup inbalance found on other versions,and ES330`s.[/quote'] It seems that the Casino's heel was slightly different from an ES-330. Now, I didn't make an in-depth study of it at the time so I don't recall the details but I may be seeing a guy who has a 60's ES-330 later in the week and if that happens I'll take my '65 Casino and put them side by side and make a direct comparison....for some reason in my head it seems the ES-330 joins a fret closer (at the 15th ???) than the Casino...it could be two different headstock angles and an optical illusion (???). If I get a chance I'll check it out and say for certain...I'm also a bit questioning about the ES-330 bodies only being three ply and I'll also check that out...the Casino was the red-headed step-child so why would the cheaper stuff be used on the ES-330? I'm almost certain that they all had the maple/birch/maple/birch/ maple plywood and if you missed seeing the middle maple ply it would look like three ply. I'll try to check it all out. ...and Al's your uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEPI Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 It seems that the Casino's heel was slightly different from an ES-330. Now, I didn't make an in-depth study of it at the time so I don't recall the details but I may be seeing a guy who has a 60's ES-330 later in the week and if that happens I'll take my '65 Casino and put them side by side and make a direct comparison....for some reason in my head it seems the ES-330 joins a fret closer (at the 15th ???) than the Casino...it could be two different headstock angles and an optical illusion (???). Al - You mention "different headstock angles". I think I've read that Gibsons have a more pronounced angle as opposed to Epis. What is the difference, how do you measure it and what are the advantages?..........J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I'm almost certain that they all had the maple/birch/maple/birch/ maple plywood and if you missed seeing the middle maple ply it would look like three ply. I'll try to check it all out. ...and Al's your uncle. I've also read that the 330's had 3 plys: maple/poplar/maple. You would think that all the ES slimlines would have the same body construction, though, just as matter of manufacturing efficiency. However, we know in the case of the 335 (especially early ones), some of them had maple/mahogany plys, so perhaps in some cases they used what ever was on hand. If it's true that only three plys were used on the 330, maybe it was to keep costs down, as it was the budget oriented ES slimline. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I've also read that the 330's had 3 plys: maple/poplar/maple. You would think that all the ES slimlines would have the same body construction' date=' though, just as matter of manufacturing efficiency. However, we know in the case of the 335 (especially early ones), some of them had maple/mahogany plys, so perhaps in some cases they used what ever was on hand. If it's true that only three plys were used on the 330, maybe it was to keep costs down, as it was the budget oriented ES slimline. Red 333[/quote'] It's not something I've heard or read about so I'll have to defer to you on this one. I've never owned an ES-330 so it's not a guitar I've examined in any kind of depth or studied its minutiae. As you said, it was a budget model of sorts so... to be honest with you I never realized that the Casinos were five ply until I read about it in the advertising for the Lennon reissue and then checked it out on mine. ...and Al's your uncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 It's not something I've heard or read about so I'll have to defer to you on this one. I've never owned an ES-330 so it's not a guitar I've examined in any kind of depth or studied its minutiae. As you said' date=' it was a budget model of sorts so... to be honest with you I never realized that the Casinos were five ply until I read about it in the advertising for the Lennon reissue and then checked it out on mine. ...and Al's your uncle[/quote'] So now I'm curious. I take out my Elitist Casino. It's five plys, but the two that are not the top, bottom, and center are thicker and darker, so who knows if they are maple or another wood. Just because Epiphone's website says 5-ply maple doesn't mean that's not a shorthand or incomplete description. I check my 1965 Lennon: the f-holes are painted, and the paint is thick so you can't see the layers. No telling. I check my Revolution Casino: it looks the same as the Elitist, 5 plys. I check my Elitist Dot: same I check my Gibson 335: it has flat black paint on the f-holes, but you can clearly see THREE plys, with the center being much thicker than the top and bottom. My ES 333: THREE again, same as the 335. Now, it may be that what I THINK is one thick ply in the center of the maple sandwich is really three layers in the Gibsons, but if so, they are clearly the same material, whereas in the Lennon/Elitists, the middle of the five plys appears to be the same thickness and material as the top and bottom plys, while the other two are thicker and darker. I'm no wood authority, but that's what it looks like to me... Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Al - You mention "different headstock angles". I think I've read that Gibsons have a more pronounced angle as opposed to Epis. What is the difference' date=' how do you measure it and what are the advantages?..........J[/quote'] Headstock angles. I never gave them much thought until I started to build a LP of my own from scratch based on a 59 Gibson LP drawing. I had to buy a special "long armed" miter guage/ protractor to determine the angles in order to cut the headstock at the correct angle. It's a compound (combined) angle, because the fingerboard is offset by 3 to 4.5 degrees, (depending on the model of guitar) and the headstock is offset by x degrees from the fingerboard. Here's what I've been able to determine so far... Using a Gibson LP drawing, the head angle is 17 degrees offset from the HORIZONTAL plane. In other words the fingerboard is somewhere between 4 and 4.5 degrees + the headstock angle is 12 degrees from the fingerboard angle to give you a COMBINED headstock angle of 17 degrees. The Epis (AFAIK) base on my measurements are about 14 degrees headstock offset. Advantages. I can't see any between 14 and 17 degrees. I think it's more to do with tradition and the thickness of the wood used to make the headstock/neck. A 17 degree angle will take a thicker chunk of mahogany or maple to machine it into a guitar neck. Increased thickness = more wood cost. I know this because I was quoted a price for a 2 inch thick piece of unplaned walnut and then Double for a 4 inch thick piece which is what you would need to make a 17 degree headstock from one piece of wood without laminating. Uncle Al correct me if I'm off on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I have both an ES-330 and a Casino. The 330 was made in the 'zoo in 1970 and the Casino in the Peerless plant in 2001. I cannot verify the number of plies on my Casino because they have been covered in black paint. The ES-330 does have a 3 ply top though. Well if you are REALLY curious about it' date=' you can remove one of the p-ups. The pickup hole will not have any black paint around it. My Emp IIs are 5 ply. A very thin layer of white wood on the underside, then a thicker layer of dark wood, then a thin layer of white wood, then dark wood, and finally a very thin layer of spruce on top. I'm not sure what Gibson is using on the new ES-175s, but from my recent factory tour in Memphis..it [b']appeared[/b] to be 3 layer, but I was not allowed to examine it by holding it in my hand. 3 ply (1/8 inch thick) using birchwood/maple is ideal for forming under steam pressure, and that is how most of the tops on the ES models are done these days. The asian ones seem to be 5 ply though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notes_Norton Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I double checked with a strong light and a magnifying glass, and as far as I can tell, the 330 top is 3 ply, and not 5 ply. Could this be the main difference in the darker sound of the 330 as compared to the Epi? Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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