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Veneers and other tops

hybrid77

By hybrid77
in Epiphone Electrics

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RSDx

RSDx

Posted
Posted
how much of my epi is actually mahogany then? Dont mind what type just wondered.

 

You buy a whole mahogany guitar to find its bits and pieces of loads of stuff

I believe/think (but don't quote me on this) that it's a 3 piece mahogany (of some strain) body with "other wood" cap w/ maple veneer (talking stds here, I guess...)
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RSDx

RSDx

Posted
Posted
yeah std plus top.

 

So wharts a cap? how thick and why need it?

I'm not totally sure how thick, it's the very top layer of the body under the veneer (the curved out kinda bulging part)....I don't know if it extends to the edges, getting thinner as it does, I'd imagine so- I don't believe it's very thick...... as someone mentioned, if you remove a pickup, you can see the layers of wood - "mahogany" body, then cap, then veneer. I think the studios have no cap and are "flat" tops (solid "mahogany" perhaps ???) Afaik, the only real "need" on the Epis, since they don't use solid maple tops,is to give the Epi that carved top LP shape (and then add the flame by veneering).....on the Gibsons, they have the maple top to show the flames/pattern of the actual maple (as opposed to Epis veneer). This is all conjecture on my part, hopefully someone will chime in with more/better info ...I think the whole "need" is aesthetics.
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RSDx

RSDx

Posted
Posted

 

Is it just a cost thing and maple tops exspensive too?

Yeah, I guess having a solid (or 2 piece) maple cap costs a lot more than maple veneer over either cheap ugly maple or alder, whichever it is that Epi does/has done....I'd imagine the price would be bumped up considerably if they made Epi Stds w/ solid high quality maple caps. Am wondering, and assuming that perhaps the Elitists have real maple caps ? I'd hope so...... and having veneered top on the Lesser Epi Les Pauls is one (of several ways) of offering a great looking, well playing, great value guitar....'tis good enough for this poor ol' phart !!!
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Biff

Biff

Posted
Posted
on the Gibsons' date=' they have the maple top to show the flames/pattern of the actual maple (as opposed to Epis veneer). This is all conjecture on my part, hopefully someone will chime in with more/better info ...I think the whole "need" is aesthetics.[/quote']

 

On Gibsons the maple is said to add some brightness in the overall tone, it's not there just for the aesthetic value.

On the other hand, Epiphone uses some cheaper woods and the effect may not be quite the same.

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Biff

Biff

Posted
Posted
The Chinese have a bad rap for being shrewd' date=' calculating buisnessmen and most would actually go to great lengths (whether legit or not) in order to make a buck. I know firsthand...[/quote']

 

Yes, well, they have a different business culture in China and it's not always obvious to us Western cowboys how their ethics work (been there, seen that too). Same goes with businesses in Russia, by the way.

 

Still, in China most of the penalties for illegal activities are somewhere between 20 years in labour camps and the death penalty so it looks to me like they are trying to keep it clean. They just don't have the infrastructure to keep up with foreign copyrights, patents or trademarks, maybe because they have been used to be a somewhat closed society in the first place.

 

I don't know who should feel more exploited - we who are buying their cheap products or the people making them for us for next to nothing..

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alfsboy

alfsboy

Posted
Posted

I have a Dot SE that has a flame maple veneer top .,I assume .Not really bothered by all this wood nonsense.Crank em up and who cares if its printed cardboard or the rarest tone wood on earth .once its been covered in thick Polyurethene 2 pack clearcoat its just not important IMHO .

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carverman

carverman

Posted
Posted
Yes the flamed top veneer is very very thin. If you are refinishing the guitar' date=' go very carefully or you'll sand right thru the veneer before you know it. I refinished by Epi LP Plus (flame top veneer), but used only finish stripper - no sanding.

 

As for sound: I ordered two identical Epi LP Plus guitars, intent on keeping the best. ONE of them had Incredible Tone - acoustically and electrically - the other just sounded like what I expected - an inexpensive beater. I was very surprised by the difference between the two "identical" guitars. -sd[/quote']

 

re: flamed top...properly seasoned tiger stripe. flame, curly maple is expensive.

I paid over $45 for a piece of flamed maple 2inch thick, 8 inches wide and about

44 inches long. Price depends on the grade and I got it from the saw mill, air

dried. If I had a factory, slicing it on a veneer saw makes a lot of sense...you can

get about 8-10 guitars off of that piece of wood.

 

Quilted..that's just flame maple sawn on a bias so that the flames are cut through

on a different direction similar to quarter sawn vs flat sawn. These are all sawyers

methods to get the best grain and stability out of tree wood.

 

As far as sound, if both were exactly the same wood composition and the same pickups

and the same tone settings, the differences should not be that great if it's a solid body.

Acoustic archtops and flattops are different though, there is quite a bit of diffence between

guitars of the same make due to top resonance.

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MarxBros

MarxBros

Posted
Posted
I'm not totally sure how thick' date=' it's the very top layer of the body under the veneer (the curved out kinda bulging part)....I don't know if it extends to the edges, getting thinner as it does, I'd imagine so- I don't believe it's very thick...... as someone mentioned, if you remove a pickup, you can see the layers of wood - "mahogany" body, then cap, then veneer. I think the studios have no cap and are "flat" tops (solid "mahogany" perhaps ???) Afaik, the only real "need" on the Epis, since they don't use solid maple tops,is to give the Epi that carved top LP shape (and then add the flame by veneering).....on the Gibsons, they have the maple top to show the flames/pattern of the actual maple (as opposed to Epis veneer). This is all conjecture on my part, hopefully someone will chime in with more/better info ...I think the whole "need" is aesthetics.[/quote']A typical, real maple cap on a Les Paul style guitar will run about 1/2" thick or more at it's thickest point in the top carve, and still be pretty thick at the edges of the guitar too.
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Biff

Biff

Posted
Posted

You can see the thickness of the cap on these pictures of Gibsons.

Notice the difference in the colour... (and how well the long tenon sits in the pocket compared to the short one - Epiphone doesn't use either style though)

 

 

tenon.jpg

 

"Top is regular Gibson modern production, bottom is the long tenon used on custom shop reissue guitars"

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Biff

Biff

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Wow' date=' the neck-fit on the regular is terrible! They hire 8 year olds now?[/quote']

 

The short tenon is a bit more rounded so it's easier to fit, so yes I suppose :) Seriously, I believe they use the short tenon (just?) because they want to route the body before installing the neck, but if it's any good for the stability or sound I wouldn't know - all I have is a couple of Epiphones and a Fender..

 

Longtenon-shorttenon1.jpg

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carverman

carverman

Posted
Posted
You can see the thickness of the cap on these pictures of Gibsons.

Notice the difference in the colour... (and how well the long tenon sits in the pocket compared to the short one - Epiphone doesn't use either style though)

 

 

Is that the actual gap after the neck tenon is fitted to the body? Looks very sloppy to me. I guess they need a gap

for the glue to squeeze out?

A good workworker should be able to get a precision fit with less glue and air gap in the pockets.

A factory with CNC routers should be able to get down to a gap of 20thousands.

EDIT: I see that the" lip"long tenon is able to go past the cutout for the neck pickup,

so it would be about 4 inch long tenon, (according to the measurements I'm taking off my Epi Custom.)

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