A question on tone

[Dave]

Theoretically speaking, a cap is a cap is a cap, the same for pots. As long as the components are quality brands, there should be no audible difference. Look at the schematic, what you see is an RC network that bleeds off the highs as you roll the tone control back. The value of the cap determines the frequency rolloff. the formula is 2piiFC. (2 * Pii * Freq * Capacitance). If you do the math and plot the points on a chart with the Y axis for Freq and the X axis for capacitance, you'll see a graph of the rolloff. There's nothing in the formula for bumblebees.

 

Now, I do believe that you can pay big bucks for caps and you will THINK that you hear a difference.

[JEPI]

It's a good thing that Stephen Hawking doesn't play guitar

 

Yeah, but if he did, he could undoubtedly give instruction on how to make a LP sound like Strat or a DOT sound like a Ricky or whatever.. Amazing human being!!!.............J

[carverman]

Theoretically speaking' date=' a cap is a cap is a cap, the same for pots. As long as the components are quality brands, there should be no audible difference. Look at the schematic, what you see is an RC network that bleeds off the highs as you roll the tone control back. The value of the cap determines the frequency rolloff. the formula is 2piiFC. (2 * Pii * Freq * Capacitance). If you do the math and plot the points on a chart with the Y axis for Freq and the X axis for capacitance, you'll see a graph of the rolloff. There's nothing in the formula for bumblebees.

 

Now, I do believe that you can pay big bucks for caps and you will THINK that you hear a difference.[/quote']

 

Yes, I understand the formula and it applies to all caps. But some caps have a different

dielectric (paper foil, polyester (mylar) foil, wax paper, paper in oil, teflon, ceramic and so on.

 

The capacitor dielectric is what gives the cap certain properties in certain applications.

 

Of course this is audio at the low end of the spectrum and pretty much most caps

behave the same way....however, just like scotch..and everyone might argue that

scotch is scotch..but there are subtle differences...single malt and age.

 

I buy the standard White and Mackay smooth scotch, but I have bought Glenfiddich

single malt *12yr at the duty free and there is a difference. The 15 yr old is even

better still...well anyway... what does this analogy have to do with capacitors as applied

to guitar tone controls...well..for most ears, (mine included), the Sprague orange

drops will do just fine..that's what I use, because they are affordable.

 

But those Sprague Bumblebees, or Black Beautys or Vitamin Qs (paper in oil) are

revered by boutique amp builders on active circuits that CLAIM that there is

a quality differenced in frequency response.

 

On a passive guitar tone circuit, maybe not as much, but the Les Paul crowd

still complain about the Gibson historic re-issues using the " new Beaujolais"

Bumble Bees that are not vintage. I can understand the reason for that..the

vintage ones are much too costly these days..even in a $3500 guitar.

[Biff]

But those Sprague Bumblebees' date=' or Black Beautys or Vitamin Qs (paper in oil) are

revered by boutique amp builders on active circuits that CLAIM that there is

a quality differenced in frequency response.

[/quote']

 

I think our local tube amp business described the differences between caps quite well - some are said to sound darker and have more mids than the more neutral hi-fi caps, but neutrality and high fidelity isn't always the thing that's sought after.. :)

[Burstbucker1281734065]

 

I think our local tube amp business described the differences between caps quite well - some are said to sound darker and have more mids than the more neutral hi-fi caps' date=' but neutrality and high fidelity isn't always the thing that's sought after.. :)

[/quote']

 

Biffs' point is well made.

 

Here's the deal - I have a Gibson Les Paul DC Pro with the standard Gibson set-up and Burstbucker Pro pick-ups in both the bridge and neck positions. It has a great tone and a nice bite that is great for rock and roll. I also have an epi Les Paul Limted Edition built in 1999 in the Korean factory. It also has a very good sound, but not nearly as good as the DC Pro; a pretty remarkable difference actually. Last year I gave the epi to my son who plays in a band. He always was wanting to play my Gibson because it sounded so much better than the epi. So, for Christmas I gave him a set of the Burstbucker Pro pups for the epi. I put the pups in and it made a terrific difference in the epi, but when I got into it I saw the electronics were shall we say poorer in quality to the Gibsons so I ordered new components for the epi. When it was all put back together the epi sounds better than the DC pro; just slightly, but enough to notice. This, by the way, kind of ticks me off because the Gibson was a way more expensive guitar than the epi even with all the guts taken out and replaced.

 

So, I listen to all the conjecture about what is and isn't real and my own experience tells me a different story.

 

This isn't done in a vacuum either; there are several of us that have compared and all reach the same conclusion.

 

I have done the math, have plotted the curves for roll off of the tone pots and the network, and can say that the math doesn't reveal the tonal differences. The math says all caps and pots are the same; its just a filter for passing frequencies and the roll off point is determined by the pot setting.

 

I have done the experiment; I have two almost identical guitars with the only differences being caps and pots. I haven't seen that pots make any sonic difference other than the good ones not being noisy. So, we are now down to caps. Since I have seen cap quality make a difference in other passive electronics, notably high end audio crossovers (slope filters for driver frequencies for Kl***ch loudspeakers that use caps and inductors, etc. for multi speaker designs) and I have designed, built, and professional tested these circuits and know the difference that good quality caps make not in the math and plots, but in sound quality (things like tone and clarity), I think I have more than a "voodoo BS" basis for making such claims.

 

Now lets get really bold - I and others have heard the difference, not just think we heard. I have it in my studio and truthfully, I wish it wasn't so because if I had known I could have saved a lot of money by not spending the money on a Gibson Guitar. I couldn't care less what the name is on the headstock, it's all abound the sound (Tone).

 

Now the good news. Our dear epi's, while modestly priced, can with a little effort stand up and rock with (or outperform) the best and also laugh all the way to the bank. What more could the "unwashed masses" want?

[TWANG]

You'll hear a lot more difference changing cap value than brand.

and there are those who claim and vociferously that any decent poly cap, like rat shack greenies, will do as good a job as any sprague.

the guitar, passive, hasn't much current, so a cap like Sozos, which need 100 hours in an amp to 'form' correctly, would probably be in there

forever with no change.

 

oil caps leak and cost 12.00 each. maybe in active, but passive.. waste of money.

 

I have tried mallorys and spragues in guitars and I indefensibly prefer spragues.

I wont claim they sound different... but then, I'm a Mojo man and doggonit. they're orange? how cool is that?

 

In the Valve Junior, I say I can hear a difference between mallorys and spragues.. but I still say, change a value and you'll hear a bigger difference.

I've got Sozos in my latest amp, and I I also think the sound has changed as they grow older.

Is that Mojo, too? Ok. Let's assume it is.

They're yellow.. how cool is that?

 

*G*

 

Pots on the other hand.. I gotta say, you can feel the difference, at the very least, with CTS and Alphas, and I also believe that they are smoother through the range of the pot.

 

Wiring is just the same. you can get cheap wire.. for instance, you don't want solid wire in there, it doesn't conduct as well. but it seems to me it would take a heck of a lot of extra wire to decrease the signal. I prefer to shorten the wires just for the ergonomics.. it's less messy, easier to work with.

Sheilding on wire varies, too. some of it is so thin and scrufty you may as well not have sheilding at all.. but well woven tight braid.. definately is going to do the job well.

 

pots wear out. good ones slowly, bad ones quick. switches that are cheap can drive you nuts.

 

and it's a good thing to point out that epis can sound really really good.. compared to any more expensive brand guitar...

most of the sounds we know and love weren't always played on the high end model or brand.

 

I really doubt that most people, experienced players included, could tell the difference between an epi and something more expensive blindfolded--with the same electronics.

By the time you add amp choice. effects choice. speaker choice. ...

 

 

I can hear Joe Walshs carvin pickups now everytime he plays.. that just isn't Joes sound from anytime before he started using them. And I think they are definately distinctive though made of the same stufff.. in the same way.

I don't like 'em one bit, either.

 

personal taste rules. get it the way you want it.. and be happy

[Ron G]

I wonder if Adam & Jamie do guitar myths

[Burstbucker1281734065]

You'll hear a lot more difference changing cap value than brand.

 

......pots wear out. good ones slowly, bad ones quick. switches that are cheap can drive you nuts.

 

and it's a good thing to point out that epis can sound really really good.. compared to any more expensive brand guitar...

most of the sounds we know and love weren't always played on the high end model or brand.

 

I really doubt that most people, experienced players included, could tell the difference between an epi and something more expensive blindfolded--with the same electronics.

By the time you add amp choice. effects choice. speaker choice. ...

 

......personal taste rules. get it the way you want it.. and be happy

 

 

 

 

Bullseye, Twang.

[CodeMonk]

I do some effects building in my spare time (for fun and a few $$$).

I have found that there is a difference in sound in different cap materials with some of the effects I build.

Sometimes ceramics sound a bit "grittier" than film (be it mylar, tantalum, etc) in some circuit.

Maybe its just the manufacturing process with certain types of materials that produce tighter tolerances?

[carverman]

You'll hear a lot more difference changing cap value than brand.

and there are those who claim and vociferously that any decent poly cap' date=' like rat shack greenies, will do as good a job as any sprague.

the guitar, passive, hasn't much current, so a cap like Sozos, which need 100 hours in an amp to 'form' correctly, would probably be in there

forever with no change.

 

oil caps leak and cost 12.00 each. maybe in active, but passive.. waste of money.

 

[/quote']

 

electrolytics leak too..and blow up occasionally..I've seen them on power amps.

 

Ok, I support your point about caps in passive circuits. An inductor (coil) and

a resistor/pot doesn't generate any current to speak off, just a few millivolts,

so practically any cap construction will work in the tone circuit..its just a RC filter

afterall. Gibson used (PIO) Bumblebees years ago, because they were readily

available and cheap back then. But technology has come up with more compact

and cheaper capacitors, like the mylar /polyester orange drops and they have been using

them since the early 60s in the guitars I have seen, so what is the fuss all about?

 

Anything vintage, like vintage guitars, vintage p-ups and yes even vintage caps

goes these days. So, if I could afford a vintage 59 LP, I would expect it to

have vintage everything in it, including the bumblebees...snake oil or.

mojo.

[Burstbucker1281734065]

Ooops, a miss post