JasonCO Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Hey guys, I just changed out the pots and caps and upgraded the wiring in my LP and fired it up for the first time. the good news was there was no crackle n hum, however it now seems that the tone is really muddy. I used CTS pots and sprague orange drop caps in the change over and I have played around with the pup height to see if that was the problem which has made a slight difference but it seems there is still a long way to go. I did notice that with the factory wiring they take the caps straight to ground where as with the diagram that I used the caps are in series from the volume to tone pots. will this make a big difference to the tone? or have I now highlighted the short comings of the standard epi pups. Any thoughts or ideas??? Cheers Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 You can wire the cap between the volume and the tone pot and then short out the tone pot, or, you can wire direct from the volume to the tone pot and then use the cap to make the ground link. Either way it's the same in the end; you have a pot and a cap in series shorted to ground. It's a chicken and egg thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 what value caps did you use? better pots and caps should have downplayed the pups shortcomings.. esp. as to mud. So.. I think you may have something wrong in there. recheck all your wiring.. ground connections that are shorted can take the tone right out, for instance. If you have to, pull the guts.. leave it connected and see if you can get it to sound ok outside of the guitar. Yesterday I sheild foiled my lp and I had a bit of foil touching the back of the little rectangle on the edge of the pot.. I had shorted the tone pot out without realizing it, and blamed it on my amp for an hour! so.. this sounds eerily like that right now.. worth a check anyway! I've rewired several epis with alphas spragues cts and mallorys and they always come out brighter and less muddy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shartom Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I would wire the tone pots as per the original wiring. I have tried the various wiring options out there. Most schematics show the tone caps wired from the tone pot to ground. If the new components are the same values as the ones you replaced, it is probably the change you made to the wiring. My five Epi's are all wired exactly the same as my Gibby LP Studio, cap to ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shartom Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Just had another thought. Try disconnecting the tone caps. If the sound brightens up, which I am sure it will, that should verify either the wiring or the caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonCO Posted June 30, 2008 Author Share Posted June 30, 2008 Cap values are Sprague Orange Drop .022mfd 200Volt Capacitors 500K pots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burstbucker1281734065 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I used 0.022 mfd Hovlands and CTS 500K ohm pots. Although the grounding all winds up being the same, I found that the switch grounding and the tone pot grounding made a difference in the clarity of the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 You can wire the cap between the volume and the tone pot and then short out the tone pot' date=' or, you can wire direct from the volume to the tone pot and then use the cap to make the ground link. Either way it's the same in the end; you have a pot and a cap in series shorted to ground. It's a chicken and egg thing.[/quote'] But which came first? :) Personally, I think he should use Bumblebees. I hear that there are literally millions of them flying around for free off the main hwy in New Brunswick from an overturned tractor trailer. ...now that would make his tone even sweeter! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burstbucker1281734065 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Just remove the stinger before you stick it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Personally' date=' I think he should use Bumblebees. I hear that there are literally millionsof them flying around for free off the main hwy in New Brunswick from an overturned tractor trailer. ...now that would make his tone even sweeter! [/quote'] ....and all kinds of voodoo mojo bulls**t. Sometimes I'm amazed at the things people believe, like wires make a guitar sound better or capacitor brand makes all the difference. Sorry if I am dissing the true believers but I'm 100% positive these things would not pass the blindfold test. But pickguards are a whole nother story](*,) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matiac Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 ....and all kinds of voodoo mojo bulls**t. Sometimes I'm amazed at the things people believe' date=' like wires make a guitar sound better or capacitor brand makes all the difference. Sorry if I am dissing the true believers but I'm 100% positive these things would not pass the blindfold test. But pickguards are a whole nother story'](*,) Damn straight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 ....and all kinds of voodoo mojo bulls**t. Sometimes I'm amazed at the things people believe' date=' like wires make a guitar sound better or capacitor brand makes all the difference. Sorry if I am dissing the true believers but I'm 100% positive these things would not pass the blindfold test. But pickguards are a whole nother story'](*,) So I guess you don't believe in magic? Wasn't that a song by John Sebastian (formerly of the Lovin' Spoonful)? "Do you believe in Magic..in a young girls heart..etc" Well you know, I'm kinda skeptical meself..but there has to be something to it..I mean why would they be asking big bucks for those vintage paper in oil (PIO) caps? And some of the older Les Pauls that they are asking hundreds of thous for have these or those rare vintage "phone book" wax caps. Those were vintage 50s/60s LPs that had that unique mojo..that rock musicians( or collectors ) are scrambling for to get. Tone is the holy grail of most serious musicians and they will pay whatever it takes to get it. Now, as far as the blindfold test..maybe with an ordinary hookup on an ordinary tube amp, your ears may not hear any distinctive difference,,but under a microscope (sorry, occilloscope/audio analyzer) there could be some difference..smoother maybe. here a source for these rare beauties... http://www.soundchamberrepairs.com/caps.htm The main thing here besides the type of Alnico bar magnet, the number of turns (very important), is the capacitive reactance to frequencies for the R/C network (cap and 500k pot). Mylar (orange drops work pretty good in my books and that's what I use exclusively on mine)..but you always wonder.. what if I had a set of those Bumblebees or Vitamin Q..or Jupiter caps....could I get that unique Slash tone and elevate my guitar far above the madding crowd.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 So what if it is demonstrable on an audio analyzer? If you can't hear it, you can't hear it. This stuff reminds me of idiots who swear their cars run better on premium fuel (I'm referring to cars that are designed to run on regular, not high-compression engines that need the octane). I recently saw something on TV where a group of professional recording engineers did an A/B listening test of music that was recorded with both digital and analog devices, all other things being equal. Most swore they could identify which one was which. Their accuracy was less than 50%. Why do people buy and pay big bucks for these things? Well, why do people buy bottled water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burstbucker1281734065 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 You can diss all you want, no exception taken. I will tell you from my own experience in guitars and audio crossovers that good capacitors make a difference. Pot ratings will make a difference in the tone as the volume changes. If materials don't make a difference why don't epi pickups sound the same as the Gibson and others on the market if they are made to the same spec? Why does an old Martin sound better than the new ones? VooDoo, Mojo, call it what you will, some mods (certainly, not all the BS floating around) make a difference. BTW, don't microwave your guitar strings unless you want to see fireworks early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 It's not that materials in pickups and guitars don't make a difference, but with electric components I think the key is that for getting a good tone they should be as close to their specs as possible. Your results will be unpredictable if the real rating is something else than what is advertised. I also believe different caps might have minimal differences in other electric properties (eg resistance) that count for the differences between different caps with same capacitance. The material does have a difference but in the end that just changes how the electrons jump around the stuff - the drift velocity of electrons in a metal wire is some millimeters in a second (the velocity of propagation being near light speed) so unless someone can prove the sound moves millimeters in a second through the guitar cord it's not like the caps are changing the properties of the electrons on the way btw I recently read an article on the official Gibson's website, that claimed there's a difference in the sound if you plug in the guitar cord (not chord) the opposite way. Makes me just want to turn up the volume and let the wise men do their tricks and seek the perfect tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 I recently read an article on the official Gibson's website' date=' that claimed there's a difference in the sound if you plug in the guitar cord (not chord) the opposite way.[/quote'] Say WHAT????!!!! I suppose the Spinal Tap 11 thing says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 It will sound like science fiction to you, but it’s really just science: guitar cords are directional. That means they very often sound a little better when plugged in one way around than the other. http://www.gibson.com/en%2Dus/Lifestyle/Features/gibsontonetipsguitarcords/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 It's a good thing that Stephen Hawking doesn't play guitar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burstbucker1281734065 Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Components with a lower DCR have less losses and contribute to the clarity (ie, less loss of signal). The material quality figures in to deliver a lower DCR and allow the "spec" of the physical construction to determine the tone. I agree with the electron drift comment. The electronics will react the same way, but the quality materials (lower DCR, etc.) change the sound less (or have less losses) than inferior components. High end frequencies seem to be the ones that suffer the most. Whether a cap is a Hovland, orange drop, BB, Jensen, or whatever the key seems to be using good quality not just a brand. I don't know about the guitar cord direction......I have wired systems using the mogami premium cables and I can't see anything that leads me to believe in directionality in that type of cable commonly used for guitar cords....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 You can diss all you want' date=' no exception taken. I will tell you from my own experience in guitars and audio crossovers that good capacitors make a difference. Pot ratings will make a difference in the tone as the volume changes. If materials don't make a difference why don't epi pickups sound the same as the Gibson and others on the market if they are made to the same spec? Why does an old Martin sound better than the new ones? VooDoo, Mojo, call it what you will, some mods (certainly, not all the BS floating around) make a difference. BTW, don't microwave your guitar strings unless you want to see fireworks early.[/quote'] Thank you Burstbucker. At least two of us are in agreement that mojo is mojo and that can cost you some serious bucks..if you can afford it. Everything makes a difference. Pickups are one component where few will argue that there is a definitely a difference in quality as the price goes up. Pots and caps do make some difference as well. Good caps in tube amps do make a difference tonewise, and I'm sure there are people on this forum that will vouch for that. Same with output transformers and the same with premium matched tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 It's not that materials in pickups and guitars don't make a difference' date=' but with electric components I think the key is that for getting a good tone they should be as close to their specs as possible. Your results will be unpredictable if the real rating is something else than what is advertised. btw I recently read an article on the official Gibson's website, that claimed there's a difference in the sound if you plug in the guitar cord (not chord) the opposite way. Makes me just want to turn up the volume and let the wise men do their tricks and seek the perfect tone. [/quote'] The type of material does make a difference. Why are there so many boutique pickup manufacturers if all things were equal (# windings/magnet material)? As far as specs, if you mean tolerances, the tolerance of most pots is 10%, and most caps the same, unless you are looking for mil grade tolerances of 5% or better. A capacitor is a frequency reactive device, and the construction will have "some effect" on the frequencies. The older construction (paper in oil or paper/wax) had unique properties not just capacitance. Polyester, Mylar, Ceramic and other types have unique properties, not just in higher voltage, but the way they are used in electronic applications. In the guitar circuit the cap/tone pot are used to bleed off the high frequencies within the pickup circuit, so it does make a difference. As far as plugging in the cord the opposite way, that's the first I've heard of that. The cord has some minimal inductance and distributed capacitance, but it is minimal compared to the actual coil and tone pot/cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Why are there so many boutique pickup manufacturers if all things were equal (# windings/magnet material)? To a great extent' date=' there are so many because snake oil sells so well. Like bottled water, as I mentioned before. Of course, there [i']are[/i] real differences, some of which can be heard with the human ear. But there is a lot of hype to sort through regarding this equipment we love so well. Not everybody is a spec/tech freak, collector or modder. I take exception with some of the dogmatic advice given on this forum that the first thing you need to do with your new Epi is to replace the wire, pots, switch and jack. I know that the components and workmanship are not top quality and that they will probably cause problems sooner or later, especially with lots of use but one is not going to have a better-sounding new guitar because of new wires, etc.. Replacement of these components as a proactive measure makes sense if it makes you feel better and/or you can afford it but it is not a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 This video shows what it's sometimes like reading highly technical and esoteric stuff about guitars and amps: Click Here---> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Of course' date=' there [i']are[/i] real differences, some of which can be heard with the human ear. But there is a lot of hype to sort through regarding this equipment .... given on this forum that the first thing you need to do with your new Epi is to replace the wire, pots, switch and jack. I know that the components and workmanship are not top quality and that they will probably cause problems sooner or later, especially with lots of use but one is not going to have a better-sounding new guitar because of new wires, etc.. Replacement of these components as a proactive measure makes sense if it makes you feel better and/or you can afford it but it is not a must. Well there, I guess you've said it. You don't need to replace the components on the Epi guitars and new wires don't necessarily make it sound better..but.... if you have an intermittent jack, or 3 way or you are not satisfied with the performance of one or both p_ups, why not? here's a link to PG discussing caps... http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burstbucker1281734065 Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Ron G.: I love that video! LOL. It had me rolling; I don't know how he can spout all that stuff and not just fall down laughing. The simple fact is that some of us enjoy the technical side of the equipment as well as playing. Maybe its my training in engineering or just my facination with electronics, tone, etc. and what makes that happen. Its hobby at its best; the desire to discover cause and effect. I don't think anyone here intends to be a purveyor of "BS" and I (we, if I may speak collectively for the kindred spirits) enjoy the journey of seperating fact from fiction. Being a natural skeptic, acceptance of new concepts without verification on my own (while maintaining openness to new ideas) to assess the merits comes at a slower pace. A search for the holy grail of tone - possibly; but "dogmatists", "idiots", "voodoo BS", come now, we should treat each other better than that.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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